#44 - Why Europe is missing 100 new drugs: Pierre-Henri Belin’s call for change

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When you look at the statistics,

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and it's not my statistics,

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it's like QVR statistics,

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there are more than 100 drugs that have been launched in the US in the last five years that are not in Europe,

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right?

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And we see this number is very constantly growing.

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If you want to build a commercial organization or commercial platform in Europe,

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you cannot just translate what you've done in the US.

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It's very different muscles.

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You need different capabilities,

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you need to think about different things and so on.

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I think we've got 10,000 often.

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Most of them are not there and the large majority impacts kids right as well.

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So it's really helped BioPharma to make the last mile to their patients.

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Many of them have done incredible work.

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The last piece is very important and very often is a bit neglected because it's not seen by this R&D organization.

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It's not seen as a challenge.

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What we try to do is to help them just evolve to the next step and really make sure that they don't miss what we call really the last mile.

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This episode is supported by Xcube.bio.

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Welcome to PharmaMinds.

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Today,

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I'm with

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Pierre-Henri Belin,

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and

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I'm very happy to be here with you,

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Pierre-Henri.

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Yeah,

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thank you very much for inviting me.

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Very happy as well.

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Pleasure to be in this very famous podcast now.

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Yes,

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and to share your story.

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Exactly.

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In a few words about what you've done,

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you've worked your whole career at...

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Johnson & Johnson and you decided to become an entrepreneur.

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We made the jump in 2022,

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very young,

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yes,

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with XCubeBio and we are a platform that helps big pharma,

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little pharma,

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late stage biopharma to really get into Europe in the best possible way.

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So we are market entry accelerator.

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Okay,

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why I wanted you here today is a because you told me since

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Yes,

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this month,

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these years,

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you've met 100 biotechs existing abroad,

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out of Europe,

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and you've discovered that maybe 100 drugs were available outside Europe,

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and there were really interesting drugs for patients,

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but not existing in Europe.

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When you look at the statistics,

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and it's not my statistics,

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it's QVIA statistics,

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there are more than 100 drugs that have been launched in the US in the last five years that are

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not in Europe,

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right?

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And we see this number is very constantly growing,

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unfortunately.

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And it means,

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just as simple as that,

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is that patients in Europe are not treated the same way as in the US,

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and they have not access to the same type of drugs,

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right?

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And here we're really talking about new molecular entities,

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so not even you know,

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biosimilar or generics or things like that.

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What opened your eyes to this program?

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Because you were in the big pharma,

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and

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Can you explain maybe when you realized something is broken?

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I mean,

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we need to...

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Well,

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yeah,

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I think it's probably really starting with a small conversation.

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I mean,

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the very beginning of this was a conversation I had with a

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Deloitte partner in healthcare called,

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I mean,

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his name is Anno Ronte.

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And

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Deloitte was running something that is called Biotech in the Box.

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Which was a great program,

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helping or advising biotech to really go to Europe and making the best of it and so on.

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And the reflection we had was that an advisory was nice,

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was useful,

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but was not maybe enough.

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And there was a need for more than that.

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And it was just this conversation that just sparkled a little bit of curiosity.

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In a good moment of your life,

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maybe.

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Yeah,

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also,

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there is where you ask yourself,

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what do I want to do in the next year,

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in the next...

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10 years or whatever.

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And then we keep looking at that.

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This was also in the context a couple of years ago,

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or even more now,

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maybe five years ago,

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where you had this very high-profile biotech coming to Europe,

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like Bluebird Bio,

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like Agios,

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others,

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and just running into problems.

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And those biotechs were our first great assets,

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great teams,

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very well advised.

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And so there was really something about the execution,

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right,

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that needed to be sorted.

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It was not just about how do we do things,

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about the talents of people.

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And this was probably the way things would happen.

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And from my experience,

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I was exposed to a lot of biotech assessing their commercial value for licensing or acquisition for J&J or for Actelion and so on.

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And I knew there was a lot of these companies around with great assets.

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That were not necessarily a good fit for big pharma in a sense that they were really on a very targeted disease,

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very difficult to fit in the portfolio or a technology.

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that was very difficult to integrate into an existing platform.

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And when we check the numbers,

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and these are numbers we are talking about,

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like 2,000

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NMEs and things like this,

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we say,

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well,

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there is something here.

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There is something that should be done because there is this big wave of innovations coming,

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and this is not easy to get to Europe for reasons you like or you don't like.

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I mean,

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you can have your judgment on the way things are happening in Europe,

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but it's the reality.

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So,

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And we need to help in the world.

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There is something to do to execute.

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Can you maybe illustrate with an example?

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You talked about Bluebird.

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Yeah,

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I mean,

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Bluebird is one example.

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Or maybe another example.

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What's happening on the execution?

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Is it like a non-preparation or too complexity?

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No,

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I think this is probably the translation of what they can do in the US needs to be adjusted and adapted.

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And what we realize...

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Many people realize,

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I guess,

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that if you want to build a commercial organization or commercial platform in Europe,

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you cannot just translate what you've done in the US.

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It's very different muscles.

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You need different capabilities,

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you need to think about different things and so on.

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And when you've got this late-stage biotech,

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which are basically very much

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R&D organization to start with.

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They need to already make a big leap to get to commercial stage,

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U.S.

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focused,

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and this is very difficult for them to make the next level.

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And so they've got good advisory,

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but the execution and the planning is not necessarily.

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doing in the right way.

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And typically

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Bluebird Bio,

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for example,

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or Aegios,

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I mean great companies,

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I mean we met with the executive,

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they were,

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they are absolutely great,

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so this is not a competency,

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this is about making it work.

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and having the right sequence of execution,

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having the right angle,

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strategic angles,

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understanding in a deep way the stakeholders,

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how payers would work,

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for example,

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or how an hospital or a KOL would work in a different way than in the U.S.,

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right?

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And so this is all these things that need to be there.

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Okay.

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And you decided to,

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what,

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how did you start?

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You decided to propose a simple model for them,

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which combines execution and financial interest?

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Honestly,

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it was really a,

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it was more a curious question to crack at the time.

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At the beginning,

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I was in Japan,

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so I was quite far from Europe,

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right?

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And so...

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That was just like,

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okay,

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what could be good?

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And as you say,

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many people,

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yes,

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maybe think the same,

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observe the same.

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Yeah,

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yeah,

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I mean,

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there are many people thinking about this.

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So I was just,

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and we had this idea to say,

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okay,

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well,

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if it's a matter of execution,

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we probably need to have an entity that is purpose-built,

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that is very flexible.

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something on which you can build and execute something.

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And so we decided and we tested the idea of creating what is called in financial jargon a

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SPV, a special purpose vehicle or a new co.

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So creating basically a company in Europe that would be a shell in which we would create and execute the launch and the entry of the partner.

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And so this was a model that this is what is called a new code deal in a way.

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So we would offer biopharma the opportunity to create with us a small company,

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a different company,

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an empty shell called NUCO.

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That would be the nucleus of the entity that you need to deploy across Europe.

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And we would use this entity as an execution vehicle and we would service and we would provide expertise to this entity to grow it step by step,

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according to a very clean,

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a very clear execution plan,

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a very sequenced execution plan.

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And it was just like this idea,

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and we tested this idea,

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and this is how we came up to,

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at some point,

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a business idea.

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That was,

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okay,

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there is a business,

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and to a point that we are creating right things.

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But it was really about,

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at the beginning about this,

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I actually came with this idea through a young borrower who is an M&A specialist to say,

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okay,

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do you think it's just reasonable to do that?

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from a financial standpoint and he liked the idea and he ended up joining us as the chairman of the board.

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So he's one of our founders.

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We checked afterwards,

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we see...

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We see

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Ludo Hooms,

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who is a former CFO of Big Pharma,

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also an entrepreneur,

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and he was saying,

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yeah,

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it can work,

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right?

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And we get there,

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you know,

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step by step to the idea that,

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yeah,

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I mean,

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this is something that could be done.

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So we are not doing consulting.

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We are not doing licensing because we are just building organization.

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And we are building on behalf of our organization according to a plan that we believe is efficient and is mitigating the risk of getting to Europe.

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Okay,

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in the middle between staying with the biotech plans and going to a big pharma plan.

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Yeah,

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a big pharma or less big pharma plan than a licensing,

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00:10:48.840 --> 00:10:49.621
typical licensing,

273
00:10:49.652 --> 00:10:49.933
where you,

274
00:10:50.324 --> 00:10:50.918
as a biopharma,

275
00:10:50.996 --> 00:10:56.387
you give up your rights to a third party in exchange of your...

276
00:10:56.560 --> 00:11:17.886
payments royalties and things like this okay and then um yes what is the win-win so the win-win is uh so we create something that is on purpose built okay so that is designed for the design for it designed for the biopharma design for the type of assets that they've got and it's very interesting for some biotechs with very specific platform or with this into specific diseases.

277
00:11:21.746 --> 00:11:24.589
We are co-owning this entity.

278
00:11:25.464 --> 00:11:34.154
for a certain period of time and the biopharma has got an option to take us out after a few years in a predefined performance-based way,

279
00:11:34.256 --> 00:11:36.013
so pretty straightforward.

280
00:11:37.232 --> 00:11:44.982
And at the end result is that they've got their own entity in Europe that is functioning,

281
00:11:45.466 --> 00:11:46.841
that is generating revenues,

282
00:11:47.591 --> 00:11:49.701
and so that they can further deploy it,

283
00:11:49.873 --> 00:11:52.498
they can just add with new assets and so on and so forth.

284
00:11:52.499 --> 00:11:53.638
Understand the market and then...

285
00:11:54.700 --> 00:12:04.683
So we basically cover this kind of very risky periods in Europe where from the filing to EMAR to getting to commercial patients,

286
00:12:04.823 --> 00:12:07.222
you've got to go through a thousand steps.

287
00:12:07.362 --> 00:12:08.206
It's a regulatory...

288
00:12:08.323 --> 00:12:09.706
Regulatory payers.

289
00:12:09.847 --> 00:12:10.323
And payers.

290
00:12:10.979 --> 00:12:13.823
I mean legal deployments across the fractionated markets,

291
00:12:14.526 --> 00:12:15.917
putting your feet on the ground,

292
00:12:16.011 --> 00:12:16.479
recruiting,

293
00:12:17.089 --> 00:12:19.323
hiring the right people inside and so on and so forth.

294
00:12:19.808 --> 00:12:22.183
And so there is zillions of things to do.

295
00:12:25.742 --> 00:12:31.209
When we did the autopsies of some of the biopharma getting on their own,

296
00:12:31.228 --> 00:12:31.509
you know,

297
00:12:32.189 --> 00:12:33.650
and what they've done and so on,

298
00:12:33.712 --> 00:12:39.892
we realized that the sequence of things that they were doing was not correct sometimes.

299
00:12:40.056 --> 00:12:43.337
And where they were over-investing or overdoing some elements,

300
00:12:43.666 --> 00:12:45.837
totally overlooking others,

301
00:12:46.900 --> 00:12:49.869
and that the sequence was not necessarily done the right way.

302
00:12:50.220 --> 00:12:54.625
So we got this very flexible construct that we can play with.

303
00:12:56.207 --> 00:13:00.406
And that can be their entry vehicle.

304
00:13:03.273 --> 00:13:03.391
Yes,

305
00:13:03.430 --> 00:13:06.516
this is very flexible,

306
00:13:06.578 --> 00:13:07.359
innovative too,

307
00:13:08.000 --> 00:13:09.953
in the point of view of the company itself.

308
00:13:10.516 --> 00:13:17.641
And also in terms of what the owners of the company would dare to do,

309
00:13:18.109 --> 00:13:19.609
because it's completely new for them.

310
00:13:19.900 --> 00:13:20.501
It's a risk from you,

311
00:13:20.601 --> 00:13:21.701
but it's also a risk from them.

312
00:13:22.082 --> 00:13:23.604
And how is it perceived today?

313
00:13:24.625 --> 00:13:25.906
Have you done a yes or a no?

314
00:13:25.907 --> 00:13:26.367
Fantastic.

315
00:13:26.668 --> 00:13:30.574
You were mentioning the number of biotechs that we,

316
00:13:30.910 --> 00:13:31.371
executives,

317
00:13:31.434 --> 00:13:31.934
we talk to.

318
00:13:32.332 --> 00:13:34.113
And in the last two years,

319
00:13:34.457 --> 00:13:34.934
we spoke to,

320
00:13:35.817 --> 00:13:39.106
we had a chance to really have a really serious discussion with more than 100 of them,

321
00:13:40.606 --> 00:13:41.199
different biotechs.

322
00:13:41.246 --> 00:13:43.121
And this is extremely,

323
00:13:43.528 --> 00:13:44.231
this was surprising,

324
00:13:44.232 --> 00:13:44.668
extremely welcome.

325
00:13:44.669 --> 00:13:46.668
You've reached the 100 biotechs.

326
00:13:46.669 --> 00:13:46.793
Yeah,

327
00:13:46.871 --> 00:13:47.684
just this summer.

328
00:13:49.887 --> 00:13:50.810
Congratulations,

329
00:13:50.890 --> 00:13:54.315
because you have an exceptional view.

330
00:13:54.316 --> 00:13:55.655
We follow 500 of them,

331
00:13:56.397 --> 00:13:58.960
so there is really a lot to do.

332
00:13:59.022 --> 00:14:02.452
And I keep discovering new biotechs.

333
00:14:02.704 --> 00:14:17.780
already phase two phase three every every month so if not every week so there are really a lot of a lot of players a lot of potential potential drugs that could be of help for for to patients so uh so

334
00:14:17.882 --> 00:14:27.062
yes we spoke to to 100 100 of them uh i mean the the model is is very very attractive because to them because we are

335
00:14:28.264 --> 00:14:28.484
I mean,

336
00:14:28.504 --> 00:14:31.845
it's very well adapted in this kind of VUCA world we are in,

337
00:14:31.945 --> 00:14:36.763
a very uncertain world because we offer to bring the resource,

338
00:14:36.786 --> 00:14:37.490
to bring the money,

339
00:14:37.646 --> 00:14:38.544
to build something.

340
00:14:38.545 --> 00:14:40.810
To share the risk.

341
00:14:40.888 --> 00:14:42.529
To share the risk and to cover the risk,

342
00:14:42.544 --> 00:14:44.427
to bring the expertise that they don't have,

343
00:14:44.428 --> 00:14:45.646
to bring also the bandwidth,

344
00:14:45.647 --> 00:14:47.505
the brand time they don't have to put out.

345
00:14:48.474 --> 00:14:52.943
But we maintain their options along the way,

346
00:14:53.068 --> 00:14:53.302
right,

347
00:14:53.365 --> 00:14:56.833
and the options to take over the business.

348
00:14:57.500 --> 00:14:59.898
to drive then the business moving forward.

349
00:15:00.464 --> 00:15:02.546
So this is really appreciated.

350
00:15:03.788 --> 00:15:04.687
We see a lot of

351
00:15:05.351 --> 00:15:09.554
CEOs in particular who were at the beginning of their business,

352
00:15:09.632 --> 00:15:09.890
you know,

353
00:15:10.218 --> 00:15:16.921
and it's really hard for them sometimes to give away to a licensing organization,

354
00:15:17.468 --> 00:15:20.608
something that they spend years and years to develop.

355
00:15:22.062 --> 00:15:24.046
And so here they stay in control.

356
00:15:24.780 --> 00:15:26.062
We are a temporary partnership,

357
00:15:26.124 --> 00:15:28.437
so we are vanishing at some point.

358
00:15:29.528 --> 00:15:30.329
once we've done the job.

359
00:15:30.830 --> 00:15:32.470
But we've got skin in the game with them also.

360
00:15:32.791 --> 00:15:33.211
Yes.

361
00:15:33.212 --> 00:15:37.636
Because we are investing in Europe for them.

362
00:15:37.637 --> 00:15:37.777
Okay,

363
00:15:37.778 --> 00:15:38.738
and how is it going today?

364
00:15:38.777 --> 00:15:39.301
Have you already?

365
00:15:39.621 --> 00:15:40.199
So we've got,

366
00:15:40.457 --> 00:15:40.582
yeah,

367
00:15:40.621 --> 00:15:40.863
we've got,

368
00:15:41.176 --> 00:15:43.324
we progressed a lot of companies.

369
00:15:44.004 --> 00:15:44.941
We are closing one,

370
00:15:45.324 --> 00:15:46.004
our first one,

371
00:15:48.144 --> 00:15:48.582
very soon.

372
00:15:49.394 --> 00:15:52.488
I can just give all the things out.

373
00:15:52.847 --> 00:15:57.238
And we've got three or four that are really on the short term.

374
00:15:58.912 --> 00:16:06.078
And it's very exciting because they are very exciting assets in a sense that they it's very innovative.

375
00:16:06.621 --> 00:16:07.062
We see,

376
00:16:07.781 --> 00:16:08.023
I mean,

377
00:16:08.125 --> 00:16:09.062
it's for patients,

378
00:16:09.085 --> 00:16:10.125
it's going to be great and so on.

379
00:16:10.126 --> 00:16:11.125
So really,

380
00:16:11.187 --> 00:16:11.343
really,

381
00:16:12.109 --> 00:16:12.664
really good,

382
00:16:12.665 --> 00:16:12.929
really good.

383
00:16:13.148 --> 00:16:13.664
What I like,

384
00:16:13.843 --> 00:16:14.007
yes,

385
00:16:15.031 --> 00:16:15.781
just the I mean,

386
00:16:15.828 --> 00:16:16.453
just to tell you,

387
00:16:16.454 --> 00:16:16.796
the model,

388
00:16:16.812 --> 00:16:17.093
I think,

389
00:16:17.812 --> 00:16:20.046
is interesting in a sense that is it's also,

390
00:16:23.109 --> 00:16:24.171
I would say filtering out,

391
00:16:24.421 --> 00:16:25.265
it's probably a bit strong,

392
00:16:25.312 --> 00:16:27.859
but incentivizing.

393
00:16:28.280 --> 00:16:29.541
The type of company with R&D,

394
00:16:29.722 --> 00:16:31.503
with a second asset or second indication,

395
00:16:32.064 --> 00:16:36.728
they like particularly your model because they know they're going to have their own structure for the second asset.

396
00:16:36.767 --> 00:16:36.970
Yes,

397
00:16:37.306 --> 00:16:37.470
yes.

398
00:16:37.471 --> 00:16:38.892
It's a long-term plan.

399
00:16:39.189 --> 00:16:39.314
Yeah,

400
00:16:39.368 --> 00:16:40.954
you've got this kind of company with a,

401
00:16:40.970 --> 00:16:42.197
you know,

402
00:16:43.658 --> 00:16:45.329
platform with a lot of science.

403
00:16:45.376 --> 00:16:46.595
We say it's not necessarily,

404
00:16:46.673 --> 00:16:46.923
you know,

405
00:16:46.924 --> 00:16:51.158
the one shot you can find or say that you've got one asset they want to monetize quick and quick.

406
00:16:51.736 --> 00:16:51.970
I mean,

407
00:16:51.971 --> 00:16:52.923
this can be also great.

408
00:16:52.924 --> 00:16:53.111
I mean,

409
00:16:53.112 --> 00:16:54.470
this can be also great assets sometimes.

410
00:16:54.486 --> 00:16:56.751
But here we've got this kind of very passionate people.

411
00:16:56.944 --> 00:17:13.380
and they uh yes and that's a uh that's adding the motivation to to work along them and uh and and yeah get their science to the final uh to the final goal right to the patients yes and um

412
00:17:13.395 --> 00:17:17.567
i was wondering is it useful or can it be useful also for european biotechs we want to

413
00:17:18.100 --> 00:17:23.047
Address the European market and we start with the science.

414
00:17:23.445 --> 00:17:24.027
That's interesting.

415
00:17:24.086 --> 00:17:24.227
Yeah,

416
00:17:24.328 --> 00:17:28.328
I think our initial assumptions was that's going to be a U.S.

417
00:17:28.391 --> 00:17:30.594
play because this is where you've got,

418
00:17:31.492 --> 00:17:31.836
of course,

419
00:17:31.852 --> 00:17:32.711
a lot of innovation.

420
00:17:33.258 --> 00:17:33.859
Needless to say,

421
00:17:33.977 --> 00:17:44.188
but also you've got a lot of this gap that exists in terms of cultural gap on the way things should happen.

422
00:17:45.266 --> 00:17:45.469
But.

423
00:17:46.008 --> 00:17:51.315
We realize also that Europe and biopharma were also potentially interested by this model.

424
00:17:52.374 --> 00:17:53.393
And actually not just them,

425
00:17:53.557 --> 00:17:57.221
and we may talk about this later on,

426
00:17:57.276 --> 00:18:04.932
but we see a more and more revision in partly Chinese companies with great potential and are also interested in this model.

427
00:18:05.526 --> 00:18:05.682
Yes,

428
00:18:05.714 --> 00:18:05.854
yes,

429
00:18:05.855 --> 00:18:07.292
we talk about this.

430
00:18:07.573 --> 00:18:10.104
But what I like about this model is that,

431
00:18:10.151 --> 00:18:10.292
okay,

432
00:18:10.339 --> 00:18:10.573
we are,

433
00:18:10.636 --> 00:18:10.807
yes,

434
00:18:11.136 --> 00:18:13.229
you said we are in a moment where innovation is...

435
00:18:14.661 --> 00:18:15.521
Rising a lot,

436
00:18:15.742 --> 00:18:16.302
exploding,

437
00:18:16.443 --> 00:18:24.230
and we are in a certain world and we didn't talk about this but the budget to pay for drugs,

438
00:18:24.269 --> 00:18:27.613
for innovative drugs in Europe are limited.

439
00:18:28.293 --> 00:18:31.996
And then it's,

440
00:18:32.918 --> 00:18:33.074
yes,

441
00:18:33.075 --> 00:18:35.558
the first step in the cold water from you,

442
00:18:36.464 --> 00:18:36.605
yes,

443
00:18:36.606 --> 00:18:37.668
to decide to do something new,

444
00:18:38.418 --> 00:18:39.449
to propose something,

445
00:18:39.668 --> 00:18:41.652
and I like the idea because you...

446
00:18:42.352 --> 00:18:44.113
No more debt exists and you have to create,

447
00:18:44.134 --> 00:18:44.895
someone has to create.

448
00:18:45.996 --> 00:18:47.078
And yes,

449
00:18:47.098 --> 00:18:47.656
just try.

450
00:18:47.797 --> 00:18:51.344
And what is maybe the perception of the payers?

451
00:18:52.399 --> 00:18:55.102
What could they win about this?

452
00:18:55.266 --> 00:18:57.844
What is the value for them too?

453
00:18:57.906 --> 00:19:00.469
Because it's also an ending point.

454
00:19:00.735 --> 00:19:00.906
Yeah,

455
00:19:01.235 --> 00:19:01.688
of course.

456
00:19:01.689 --> 00:19:01.813
Well,

457
00:19:01.814 --> 00:19:02.016
I mean,

458
00:19:03.750 --> 00:19:06.328
I think that the payers are not,

459
00:19:06.422 --> 00:19:06.656
you know,

460
00:19:06.657 --> 00:19:07.297
they are not evil,

461
00:19:07.391 --> 00:19:07.610
right?

462
00:19:08.235 --> 00:19:08.922
They want value.

463
00:19:09.281 --> 00:19:11.156
And so they want to make sure.

464
00:19:11.960 --> 00:19:18.986
that what you bring to the market is going to be really a value for the healthcare system overall,

465
00:19:19.006 --> 00:19:19.885
for the patient of course,

466
00:19:19.886 --> 00:19:21.588
but also in general for the healthcare system.

467
00:19:21.650 --> 00:19:25.557
So if you bring an innovation that is a real innovation,

468
00:19:25.596 --> 00:19:26.775
that you've got the right endpoints,

469
00:19:28.142 --> 00:19:29.736
and you've got the right demonstration,

470
00:19:30.814 --> 00:19:35.517
what we see is that payers are inclined to pay for the right things,

471
00:19:35.564 --> 00:19:35.799
right?

472
00:19:36.142 --> 00:19:38.064
And of course there are budget constraints and so on,

473
00:19:38.111 --> 00:19:39.986
but you can get there.

474
00:19:41.088 --> 00:19:46.652
What we also propose on the other side is really to be as lean as possible,

475
00:19:46.734 --> 00:19:53.777
to make sure that we are not shedding money away that would not be driving more value to patients.

476
00:19:54.145 --> 00:19:56.465
And so our model is very also driven towards this.

477
00:19:57.402 --> 00:19:58.887
But we fundamentally believe that,

478
00:19:59.574 --> 00:19:59.824
again,

479
00:19:59.840 --> 00:19:59.965
if...

480
00:20:01.370 --> 00:20:02.251
They are good assets,

481
00:20:02.290 --> 00:20:04.454
they are willingness to pay.

482
00:20:06.395 --> 00:20:11.540
And when you look at a difficult conversation with payers,

483
00:20:11.899 --> 00:20:20.922
it's often because the added value to the existing standard of care is not great or that the data that has been generated to demonstrate is not a fit,

484
00:20:21.063 --> 00:20:21.282
right?

485
00:20:23.157 --> 00:20:25.954
And that's what we try to avoid also in our process.

486
00:20:26.391 --> 00:20:27.110
To anticipate,

487
00:20:27.157 --> 00:20:27.282
yeah.

488
00:20:27.391 --> 00:20:27.547
Yeah,

489
00:20:27.548 --> 00:20:29.001
to anticipate and we like to...

490
00:20:30.104 --> 00:20:32.247
to talk to companies that are,

491
00:20:32.546 --> 00:20:34.388
to start talking to companies that are phase two,

492
00:20:35.630 --> 00:20:37.411
so that we can,

493
00:20:38.435 --> 00:20:40.115
we don't do new code at this stage or whatever,

494
00:20:40.177 --> 00:20:40.872
it's very light,

495
00:20:40.974 --> 00:20:53.365
but we can help them just reflecting on the last phase of their clinical developments to make sure that they deliver,

496
00:20:53.443 --> 00:20:55.786
they produce the right data set.

497
00:20:56.908 --> 00:20:58.948
makes the conversation with EMEA in one sense,

498
00:20:58.949 --> 00:21:01.491
but also with payers a better one.

499
00:21:02.948 --> 00:21:03.229
And so,

500
00:21:03.748 --> 00:21:03.870
yeah.

501
00:21:04.229 --> 00:21:04.588
So you can,

502
00:21:05.088 --> 00:21:05.252
yes,

503
00:21:05.307 --> 00:21:07.729
nearly assure they will go somewhere.

504
00:21:07.893 --> 00:21:08.010
Yeah,

505
00:21:08.252 --> 00:21:08.409
yeah,

506
00:21:08.487 --> 00:21:08.893
yeah.

507
00:21:08.894 --> 00:21:09.409
And put them in,

508
00:21:09.410 --> 00:21:10.471
I mean,

509
00:21:10.815 --> 00:21:11.909
there are some misconceptions.

510
00:21:11.910 --> 00:21:12.088
I mean,

511
00:21:12.190 --> 00:21:15.534
the dynamics of pricing in the US and Europe is so different.

512
00:21:16.268 --> 00:21:23.831
And we cannot blame the biotechs to look first at the US market because this is what makes their investments,

513
00:21:24.393 --> 00:21:24.627
you know.

514
00:21:25.056 --> 00:21:25.477
...viable,

515
00:21:25.637 --> 00:21:26.218
unfortunately.

516
00:21:26.918 --> 00:21:30.101
The US is really so important now in terms of financials,

517
00:21:30.140 --> 00:21:31.862
so they have to do that.

518
00:21:33.886 --> 00:21:34.964
But Europe is important as well.

519
00:21:34.965 --> 00:21:35.143
I mean,

520
00:21:35.144 --> 00:21:38.128
it can still be a sizable amount of their business.

521
00:21:38.167 --> 00:21:39.112
There are a lot of patients.

522
00:21:39.113 --> 00:21:40.229
There are more patients than in the US.

523
00:21:40.292 --> 00:21:43.800
So this is a go-to market.

524
00:21:43.815 --> 00:21:43.956
Yes,

525
00:21:43.987 --> 00:21:44.878
but I think it's also,

526
00:21:45.159 --> 00:21:47.050
we didn't talk about these sectors,

527
00:21:47.097 --> 00:21:50.393
but also for big pharma to understand how lunch can be done.

528
00:21:51.832 --> 00:21:59.996
maybe in a more lean way and get rentability with different expenses?

529
00:21:59.997 --> 00:22:00.152
Yeah,

530
00:22:00.277 --> 00:22:00.637
absolutely.

531
00:22:00.652 --> 00:22:01.855
I mean,

532
00:22:01.996 --> 00:22:18.363
I've been in large pharma and we turn down sometimes assets that could be interesting to license or to acquire because they were too small because the cost of the platform is of the operating elements of the big pharma is there and you just cannot.

533
00:22:19.344 --> 00:22:23.949
make it work for a small population of patients most of the time,

534
00:22:23.969 --> 00:22:24.168
right?

535
00:22:25.211 --> 00:22:25.930
And we see that,

536
00:22:26.129 --> 00:22:26.613
for example,

537
00:22:26.731 --> 00:22:37.176
now the big pharma tends to step away from the orphan disease area because it's very difficult to operate and they go into the GLP and all the things that are fashionable at the moment.

538
00:22:38.270 --> 00:22:44.129
But there is a lot of innovation in smaller spaces,

539
00:22:44.254 --> 00:22:44.504
right?

540
00:22:45.707 --> 00:22:47.832
I was looking at the statistics,

541
00:22:47.833 --> 00:22:48.051
I think.

542
00:22:49.184 --> 00:22:53.725
There are more than 9,000 diseases with no treatments.

543
00:22:54.366 --> 00:22:54.624
And so,

544
00:22:55.444 --> 00:22:56.643
I think we've got 10,000 often,

545
00:22:57.229 --> 00:22:58.924
and most of them are not there.

546
00:22:59.307 --> 00:23:02.385
And the large majority impacts kids,

547
00:23:02.424 --> 00:23:02.627
right,

548
00:23:02.667 --> 00:23:02.924
as well.

549
00:23:03.010 --> 00:23:03.206
Yeah,

550
00:23:03.651 --> 00:23:04.995
they talk about tsunami of innovation.

551
00:23:05.088 --> 00:23:05.354
And so,

552
00:23:05.573 --> 00:23:05.792
yes,

553
00:23:06.870 --> 00:23:08.745
and so how do you get there?

554
00:23:08.746 --> 00:23:12.463
I think the biopharma platforms are fantastic to deploy,

555
00:23:13.010 --> 00:23:13.292
you know,

556
00:23:15.448 --> 00:23:16.370
large-scale innovation.

557
00:23:17.944 --> 00:23:18.184
I mean,

558
00:23:18.605 --> 00:23:22.349
COVID vaccines or immunologics and things like this.

559
00:23:22.587 --> 00:23:23.388
But for small things,

560
00:23:23.790 --> 00:23:25.009
you need something different probably.

561
00:23:25.470 --> 00:23:28.017
And this is what we try to crack here.

562
00:23:29.634 --> 00:23:31.634
For very specific precision medicine,

563
00:23:32.478 --> 00:23:37.306
you probably need another way to look at things that is more flexible,

564
00:23:37.322 --> 00:23:44.447
that is more purpose-built and leave options on making sure you can adapt to the...

565
00:23:44.888 --> 00:23:45.869
to the market conditions.

566
00:23:45.909 --> 00:23:49.875
Yes indeed it's very complex but that's what makes it interesting.

567
00:23:50.312 --> 00:23:56.117
And can you maybe in one sentence explain your mission so we can understand really what...

568
00:23:56.656 --> 00:23:59.640
Well bring innovations to patients and really do...

569
00:24:01.719 --> 00:24:05.828
So it's really helped biopharma to make the last mile to their patients,

570
00:24:06.156 --> 00:24:06.734
to the patients.

571
00:24:07.906 --> 00:24:13.078
Many of them have done incredible work just you know deploying from phase one to phase three.

572
00:24:13.560 --> 00:24:14.661
preclinical to first three.

573
00:24:15.422 --> 00:24:23.567
And so the last piece is very important and very often is a bit neglected because it's not seen by this R&D organization.

574
00:24:23.747 --> 00:24:24.832
It's not seen as a challenge,

575
00:24:24.872 --> 00:24:25.114
right?

576
00:24:26.872 --> 00:24:27.036
Well,

577
00:24:27.129 --> 00:24:27.997
you probably heard this,

578
00:24:28.051 --> 00:24:29.957
but you hear a lot of CEOs saying,

579
00:24:29.973 --> 00:24:30.223
you know,

580
00:24:30.224 --> 00:24:31.192
my product is so good.

581
00:24:32.223 --> 00:24:33.082
I don't need commercial.

582
00:24:34.317 --> 00:24:38.957
It's going to be sold like hotcakes,

583
00:24:39.051 --> 00:24:39.223
right?

584
00:24:39.796 --> 00:24:40.597
Which is never happening,

585
00:24:40.617 --> 00:24:40.998
of course,

586
00:24:41.840 --> 00:24:43.362
because this is a bit more complex than that.

587
00:24:43.442 --> 00:24:43.563
But

588
00:24:45.067 --> 00:24:46.949
OK, you cannot blame them to be there,

589
00:24:47.028 --> 00:24:47.289
right?

590
00:24:47.934 --> 00:24:54.801
What we try to do is to help them just evolve to the next step and really make sure that they don't miss what we call really the last mile.

591
00:24:54.840 --> 00:24:57.004
So the little piece of work,

592
00:24:57.020 --> 00:24:57.223
I mean,

593
00:24:57.270 --> 00:24:58.363
that is not so little,

594
00:24:58.395 --> 00:24:58.613
actually,

595
00:24:58.645 --> 00:25:00.004
but the little piece of work that needs to be done.

596
00:25:00.220 --> 00:25:08.310
from the end of your data set or the generation of data to the real patients having real access and being treated in real condition.

597
00:25:08.529 --> 00:25:08.708
Yes,

598
00:25:08.732 --> 00:25:10.154
and then it means you make maybe,

599
00:25:10.155 --> 00:25:13.052
I don't know if it's a few years,

600
00:25:13.474 --> 00:25:14.177
five years with you.

601
00:25:14.693 --> 00:25:14.818
Yeah.

602
00:25:14.819 --> 00:25:17.982
Partnerships means they would have two years of commercialization with you and you do the...

603
00:25:18.622 --> 00:25:18.779
Yes,

604
00:25:19.763 --> 00:25:20.013
we go,

605
00:25:20.654 --> 00:25:20.904
I mean,

606
00:25:20.982 --> 00:25:22.685
typically we go four to six.

607
00:25:23.201 --> 00:25:23.326
Okay.

608
00:25:23.327 --> 00:25:23.982
On average five,

609
00:25:24.029 --> 00:25:24.357
you're right.

610
00:25:26.607 --> 00:25:28.201
And that leaves us time to...

611
00:25:29.012 --> 00:25:47.826
Of course going through this regulatory process and payer and also deploy across the continent because I mean the other thing about Europe is that it's so fragmented and you cannot just do one launch and this is another concept that is quite difficult from a US standpoint.

612
00:25:47.873 --> 00:25:48.544
It's not one launch,

613
00:25:48.591 --> 00:25:53.591
it's just like 27 or more launches that are happening over two,

614
00:25:53.638 --> 00:25:53.998
three years,

615
00:25:54.076 --> 00:25:54.279
right?

616
00:25:54.419 --> 00:25:56.419
And so yeah,

617
00:25:56.482 --> 00:25:58.388
we have time to do that once we are there.

618
00:25:59.489 --> 00:26:01.291
It's time for us to exit.

619
00:26:01.510 --> 00:26:01.752
Yes,

620
00:26:01.971 --> 00:26:02.131
yes,

621
00:26:02.272 --> 00:26:03.932
this is what they plan to do.

622
00:26:03.994 --> 00:26:05.014
Okay.

623
00:26:05.033 --> 00:26:05.174
Yes,

624
00:26:05.256 --> 00:26:09.736
and how is it perceived from the financials in the US too?

625
00:26:10.604 --> 00:26:10.721
Yeah,

626
00:26:10.736 --> 00:26:10.940
I mean,

627
00:26:12.065 --> 00:26:13.041
it was very interesting.

628
00:26:14.260 --> 00:26:21.088
I think the fact that the US market is now a little bit more uncertain,

629
00:26:21.275 --> 00:26:21.463
right?

630
00:26:21.525 --> 00:26:21.729
Yes,

631
00:26:21.730 --> 00:26:21.947
totally.

632
00:26:21.948 --> 00:26:22.088
I mean,

633
00:26:22.572 --> 00:26:22.932
of course,

634
00:26:22.933 --> 00:26:25.307
it's still the top priority overall.

635
00:26:28.188 --> 00:26:30.671
We see more and more investments,

636
00:26:30.712 --> 00:26:31.192
vehicles,

637
00:26:31.212 --> 00:26:32.032
or funds,

638
00:26:32.173 --> 00:26:32.614
things like this,

639
00:26:32.692 --> 00:26:34.395
interested in looking outside,

640
00:26:34.415 --> 00:26:40.723
just probably to diversify and making sure that they are not just relying on the US.

641
00:26:42.278 --> 00:26:45.059
We had this experience of talking to funds,

642
00:26:46.450 --> 00:26:49.606
which the partners were telling us,

643
00:26:49.607 --> 00:26:49.856
you know,

644
00:26:49.903 --> 00:26:51.153
it's the first time

645
00:26:51.637 --> 00:26:54.856
I see how business works in Europe,

646
00:26:54.887 --> 00:26:55.091
right?

647
00:26:55.434 --> 00:26:56.122
We never really...

648
00:26:56.704 --> 00:26:57.064
bet on this.

649
00:26:57.084 --> 00:27:02.569
So it means that the investment they've done in some of the biotech were just against the US potential.

650
00:27:03.272 --> 00:27:03.729
So it's a,

651
00:27:05.292 --> 00:27:06.331
initially they were not interested,

652
00:27:06.354 --> 00:27:07.393
but they start to be interested.

653
00:27:07.394 --> 00:27:07.518
Okay,

654
00:27:07.519 --> 00:27:08.877
it's like to just open their eyes.

655
00:27:08.878 --> 00:27:09.034
Yeah.

656
00:27:09.596 --> 00:27:10.901
And because also they realize,

657
00:27:10.902 --> 00:27:11.096
I mean,

658
00:27:11.097 --> 00:27:17.260
they realize that some funds got dozens of those biotechs that are now reaching,

659
00:27:17.682 --> 00:27:17.932
you know,

660
00:27:18.042 --> 00:27:18.542
phase three.

661
00:27:19.823 --> 00:27:20.542
And the question is,

662
00:27:20.823 --> 00:27:21.323
what do we do?

663
00:27:21.776 --> 00:27:22.073
And so

664
00:27:23.384 --> 00:27:24.986
They cannot find necessarily a license,

665
00:27:25.025 --> 00:27:26.107
they don't want to do a license,

666
00:27:26.108 --> 00:27:27.328
they want to go on their own and so on.

667
00:27:27.730 --> 00:27:35.238
And so there is this question that is coming and they see that there are more and more of these companies and this is a step that is important because it's a step of monetization,

668
00:27:35.379 --> 00:27:35.574
right?

669
00:27:35.613 --> 00:27:40.027
So it's a step where the investments start to return,

670
00:27:40.105 --> 00:27:40.293
right?

671
00:27:41.043 --> 00:27:43.371
And so they are very interested with our model.

672
00:27:43.418 --> 00:27:46.887
We've got a lot of traction on this,

673
00:27:48.246 --> 00:27:50.793
which is nice because it helps us just really

674
00:27:51.704 --> 00:27:53.546
planning for some fundings and so on.

675
00:27:55.749 --> 00:28:00.214
The difficulty we have is always to showcase a new model,

676
00:28:00.292 --> 00:28:00.511
right?

677
00:28:00.550 --> 00:28:05.394
And so it took us a little bit of time to get people acquainted to that,

678
00:28:05.480 --> 00:28:07.707
to see the benefits and so on.

679
00:28:07.708 --> 00:28:07.847
Yes,

680
00:28:07.848 --> 00:28:08.363
to trust it also,

681
00:28:08.378 --> 00:28:08.847
yeah.

682
00:28:08.925 --> 00:28:16.566
But we've got a fantastic connection now with this investments world.

683
00:28:16.628 --> 00:28:19.972
They see the value and see the...

684
00:28:21.060 --> 00:28:22.323
the need for that.

685
00:28:22.663 --> 00:28:23.245
When you look at,

686
00:28:24.186 --> 00:28:26.610
we said there are something like 2,000 assets,

687
00:28:27.110 --> 00:28:29.212
when you look at the number of operators that are

688
00:28:29.758 --> 00:28:34.521
able to bring innovation in Europe as a whole,

689
00:28:34.583 --> 00:28:37.525
not just counting some very sub-regional.

690
00:28:38.490 --> 00:28:39.544
There is less than 100,

691
00:28:39.545 --> 00:28:40.411
there's probably 80.

692
00:28:40.771 --> 00:28:41.966
So you've got 2000 assets,

693
00:28:42.154 --> 00:28:42.888
80 players,

694
00:28:43.576 --> 00:28:44.333
there is something wrong,

695
00:28:44.396 --> 00:28:44.591
right?

696
00:28:44.693 --> 00:28:46.107
You need to have more options.

697
00:28:46.154 --> 00:28:50.122
And I think most of the funds understood that and the investors understood that.

698
00:28:51.666 --> 00:28:51.786
Yes,

699
00:28:51.806 --> 00:28:55.350
and it's also a way to present Europe as an open market and with solutions.

700
00:28:55.510 --> 00:28:55.792
Yeah,

701
00:28:55.793 --> 00:28:56.151
exactly.

702
00:28:56.210 --> 00:28:58.631
And it's a state of problems.

703
00:29:00.315 --> 00:29:00.456
Yeah,

704
00:29:00.495 --> 00:29:00.737
I mean,

705
00:29:00.776 --> 00:29:06.503
the reputation of Europe as a pharmaceutical market is not great.

706
00:29:06.542 --> 00:29:06.878
Sometimes,

707
00:29:07.003 --> 00:29:07.323
honestly,

708
00:29:07.362 --> 00:29:07.964
for a wrong reason.

709
00:29:08.026 --> 00:29:12.651
And they say there are things that are done in the very right way as well.

710
00:29:12.854 --> 00:29:12.964
So,

711
00:29:15.604 --> 00:29:15.729
yeah,

712
00:29:16.073 --> 00:29:17.417
it's just a different market.

713
00:29:17.418 --> 00:29:20.510
And this is why we try to explain and say it's not worse or...

714
00:29:21.090 --> 00:29:21.510
Or better,

715
00:29:21.610 --> 00:29:22.850
it's different than the US.

716
00:29:22.851 --> 00:29:23.651
I think it's more complex.

717
00:29:24.010 --> 00:29:24.132
Yeah.

718
00:29:24.430 --> 00:29:27.530
Then you need more time to accept.

719
00:29:27.550 --> 00:29:28.612
I would almost disagree with that.

720
00:29:28.613 --> 00:29:29.975
I think I would agree in a way,

721
00:29:30.350 --> 00:29:31.093
but I would almost disagree.

722
00:29:31.094 --> 00:29:33.350
I think the entry is more complex.

723
00:29:34.475 --> 00:29:36.514
And so getting in there,

724
00:29:36.733 --> 00:29:37.593
the market entry,

725
00:29:37.671 --> 00:29:39.108
so getting into the country,

726
00:29:39.249 --> 00:29:40.530
into Europe is complex.

727
00:29:40.796 --> 00:29:44.452
And it's much more complex than the US where you've got a very free market.

728
00:29:44.655 --> 00:29:46.155
But we have one payer after that.

729
00:29:46.938 --> 00:29:48.860
But then once you convince the payer,

730
00:29:48.960 --> 00:29:51.843
you've got also what is called universal coverage in most of the countries.

731
00:29:51.844 --> 00:29:53.604
So you don't have any question ask.

732
00:29:53.886 --> 00:29:54.726
If there is a prescription,

733
00:29:54.788 --> 00:29:55.569
there is a fulfillment.

734
00:29:56.749 --> 00:29:57.311
In the U.S.,

735
00:29:57.632 --> 00:29:57.991
of course,

736
00:29:57.992 --> 00:29:59.952
you can launch and you can pretend you launch,

737
00:30:00.710 --> 00:30:00.976
you know,

738
00:30:01.054 --> 00:30:02.897
very easily because it's free market.

739
00:30:02.898 --> 00:30:03.616
You set your price,

740
00:30:03.617 --> 00:30:03.851
you go,

741
00:30:04.038 --> 00:30:04.257
right?

742
00:30:04.288 --> 00:30:06.022
And it's there.

743
00:30:06.397 --> 00:30:12.819
But you've got along the way so many things to do to almost sometimes just to convince patient by patient,

744
00:30:12.882 --> 00:30:13.319
right?

745
00:30:13.444 --> 00:30:14.147
The payer to pay,

746
00:30:14.241 --> 00:30:14.429
right?

747
00:30:14.460 --> 00:30:14.585
So

748
00:30:15.747 --> 00:30:18.509
There is a lot of complexity that is coming progressively in the US.

749
00:30:18.510 --> 00:30:20.569
It's different then.

750
00:30:20.570 --> 00:30:20.651
Yeah.

751
00:30:20.652 --> 00:30:21.132
And it's just like I said,

752
00:30:21.133 --> 00:30:21.253
I mean,

753
00:30:21.254 --> 00:30:22.112
it's different muscles.

754
00:30:22.253 --> 00:30:25.319
And this is where I think we believe that the issue is,

755
00:30:25.374 --> 00:30:25.616
right?

756
00:30:25.655 --> 00:30:27.319
It's capabilities are different.

757
00:30:28.257 --> 00:30:28.437
Okay.

758
00:30:28.476 --> 00:30:28.741
Again,

759
00:30:28.796 --> 00:30:28.960
yes,

760
00:30:29.398 --> 00:30:31.999
Europe is seen as more regulated country.

761
00:30:32.000 --> 00:30:32.187
It is,

762
00:30:32.468 --> 00:30:32.609
yeah.

763
00:30:33.984 --> 00:30:35.905
And fragmented.

764
00:30:36.562 --> 00:30:36.749
Yes,

765
00:30:36.812 --> 00:30:37.234
fragmented.

766
00:30:37.280 --> 00:30:37.624
And yes,

767
00:30:37.984 --> 00:30:39.827
maybe the cultural aspect.

768
00:30:40.327 --> 00:30:41.093
And there are cultural aspects,

769
00:30:41.094 --> 00:30:41.312
you're right.

770
00:30:41.313 --> 00:30:41.530
More complex,

771
00:30:41.531 --> 00:30:41.609
yeah.

772
00:30:41.610 --> 00:30:41.718
Okay.

773
00:30:41.719 --> 00:30:41.874
Yeah,

774
00:30:41.875 --> 00:30:42.296
I'll control aspects,

775
00:30:42.297 --> 00:30:42.530
you're right.

776
00:30:42.531 --> 00:30:43.187
More commission,

777
00:30:43.188 --> 00:30:43.296
yeah.

778
00:30:43.312 --> 00:30:43.452
Yeah.

779
00:30:43.453 --> 00:30:43.609
Okay.

780
00:30:44.058 --> 00:30:45.540
What if a launch fails?

781
00:30:45.541 --> 00:30:46.640
Who pays?

782
00:30:47.202 --> 00:30:48.464
So we take the risk,

783
00:30:48.542 --> 00:30:48.784
right?

784
00:30:49.245 --> 00:30:49.382
Well,

785
00:30:49.401 --> 00:30:49.823
financially,

786
00:30:49.824 --> 00:30:55.948
we take the risk to complete failure,

787
00:30:56.151 --> 00:30:56.370
right?

788
00:30:56.394 --> 00:30:57.831
That exists.

789
00:30:57.832 --> 00:30:58.331
The worst case.

790
00:30:58.589 --> 00:30:59.472
This is the worst case.

791
00:31:00.394 --> 00:31:02.362
I'm not saying it's never going to happen.

792
00:31:03.581 --> 00:31:05.659
We've got a lot of control on that.

793
00:31:07.878 --> 00:31:08.144
And we,

794
00:31:08.425 --> 00:31:08.706
again,

795
00:31:09.144 --> 00:31:12.440
the way to do that is to sequence your investments.

796
00:31:12.874 --> 00:31:15.376
And this is what we do so that if you lose,

797
00:31:15.377 --> 00:31:16.678
you don't lose too big,

798
00:31:16.817 --> 00:31:17.098
right?

799
00:31:20.403 --> 00:31:21.844
You can change your mind in the middle.

800
00:31:22.524 --> 00:31:23.180
We've got some,

801
00:31:23.204 --> 00:31:24.227
I mean,

802
00:31:25.290 --> 00:31:27.469
in cooperation with our biopharma partner,

803
00:31:27.485 --> 00:31:27.946
of course,

804
00:31:28.571 --> 00:31:29.727
there are ways to step out,

805
00:31:29.837 --> 00:31:30.024
right,

806
00:31:30.087 --> 00:31:30.649
if we need to.

807
00:31:31.727 --> 00:31:35.977
But we found this launch,

808
00:31:35.993 --> 00:31:36.118
right,

809
00:31:36.119 --> 00:31:37.493
the market entry and the deployment.

810
00:31:37.571 --> 00:31:39.524
So this is of financial risk,

811
00:31:39.727 --> 00:31:39.899
right,

812
00:31:39.977 --> 00:31:40.274
overall.

813
00:31:42.266 --> 00:31:42.526
I mean,

814
00:31:42.606 --> 00:31:42.827
again,

815
00:31:43.187 --> 00:31:45.410
we try to control that by sequencing our investments,

816
00:31:45.469 --> 00:31:45.910
by being,

817
00:31:46.789 --> 00:31:46.992
again,

818
00:31:47.051 --> 00:31:47.269
lean,

819
00:31:47.351 --> 00:31:47.551
flex.

820
00:31:49.754 --> 00:31:49.894
Yes,

821
00:31:49.895 --> 00:31:52.394
and you will learn on the way and you're failing your rate.

822
00:31:52.433 --> 00:31:52.676
Exactly,

823
00:31:53.676 --> 00:31:53.996
exactly.

824
00:31:54.394 --> 00:31:55.418
But they are,

825
00:31:55.519 --> 00:31:55.762
I mean,

826
00:31:57.644 --> 00:32:00.465
the biotechs which went alone and succeeded,

827
00:32:00.824 --> 00:32:01.965
they are in Europe,

828
00:32:02.058 --> 00:32:02.230
right?

829
00:32:02.231 --> 00:32:02.512
They are.

830
00:32:02.793 --> 00:32:03.605
Some of them flourished,

831
00:32:03.652 --> 00:32:03.840
right?

832
00:32:03.902 --> 00:32:04.762
And they did great.

833
00:32:05.652 --> 00:32:08.699
They had all this kind of discipline of sequencing,

834
00:32:09.371 --> 00:32:10.652
of getting step by step.

835
00:32:11.895 --> 00:32:16.240
and moving from one success to the other,

836
00:32:16.498 --> 00:32:18.260
and learning from the failures,

837
00:32:18.401 --> 00:32:19.479
and adjusting afterwards,

838
00:32:19.502 --> 00:32:19.861
and so on.

839
00:32:19.862 --> 00:32:21.666
And this is really the way to go.

840
00:32:22.307 --> 00:32:22.643
And again,

841
00:32:22.705 --> 00:32:25.885
very different from a US launch where the point is really to go strong,

842
00:32:26.572 --> 00:32:30.111
full in the first step,

843
00:32:30.190 --> 00:32:30.377
right?

844
00:32:30.408 --> 00:32:33.111
So that's what we try to do.

845
00:32:36.486 --> 00:32:36.674
Yes,

846
00:32:37.236 --> 00:32:39.549
I start to imagine yourself as a group.

847
00:32:40.258 --> 00:32:53.429
With different companies and then it means you don't have limitations for competitive risk or anything because each one is in silos and it's one kind of approach.

848
00:32:53.468 --> 00:32:55.835
Because it's like,

849
00:32:55.836 --> 00:32:59.835
I think something really special about this industry is it means different companies,

850
00:33:00.304 --> 00:33:03.241
different business can be into the same house.

851
00:33:03.788 --> 00:33:04.038
Yeah,

852
00:33:04.116 --> 00:33:04.647
that's true.

853
00:33:04.944 --> 00:33:05.179
I mean,

854
00:33:06.663 --> 00:33:07.585
what XSKIP.bio is,

855
00:33:08.569 --> 00:33:09.554
is primarily a platform.

856
00:33:09.778 --> 00:33:12.681
So a platform that is creating companies.

857
00:33:12.941 --> 00:33:13.822
So you're right,

858
00:33:14.541 --> 00:33:19.205
each of the partners got their own companies and we can operate them separately and so on.

859
00:33:20.845 --> 00:33:23.728
But the platform is there to be able to scale,

860
00:33:23.791 --> 00:33:24.033
right,

861
00:33:24.072 --> 00:33:26.689
and to be able to have a lot of these companies.

862
00:33:27.142 --> 00:33:27.736
We don't think it's,

863
00:33:27.752 --> 00:33:27.908
I mean,

864
00:33:27.909 --> 00:33:29.299
we think it's probably...

865
00:33:31.701 --> 00:33:36.185
a better approach in the current world where you know we've got precision medicine,

866
00:33:36.205 --> 00:33:38.709
you've got very targeted assets.

867
00:33:40.466 --> 00:33:43.373
The focus is important and more than the cross.

868
00:33:43.951 --> 00:33:44.076
Yes,

869
00:33:44.077 --> 00:33:45.271
I would like to talk about your

870
00:33:46.568 --> 00:33:51.552
100 interviews you had and to give an insight from someone,

871
00:33:51.865 --> 00:33:52.927
not from a position paper,

872
00:33:53.943 --> 00:33:55.021
about these companies,

873
00:33:55.584 --> 00:33:56.240
what's happening,

874
00:33:56.646 --> 00:33:57.521
where it comes from.

875
00:33:58.646 --> 00:33:59.627
What do we talk about?

876
00:34:02.109 --> 00:34:07.418
Maybe we can start with what we observed is the problem,

877
00:34:07.472 --> 00:34:07.879
basically,

878
00:34:08.613 --> 00:34:12.058
which was not necessarily as clear when we started,

879
00:34:12.136 --> 00:34:12.402
right?

880
00:34:14.222 --> 00:34:14.660
Because you say,

881
00:34:14.675 --> 00:34:14.910
okay,

882
00:34:14.957 --> 00:34:16.097
maybe they don't have money,

883
00:34:16.800 --> 00:34:17.629
maybe they don't have,

884
00:34:18.050 --> 00:34:18.410
I don't know,

885
00:34:18.941 --> 00:34:21.832
willingness or something like this to go to Europe.

886
00:34:22.425 --> 00:34:24.066
What we see is a

887
00:34:25.566 --> 00:34:27.008
There are three things,

888
00:34:27.088 --> 00:34:28.390
but two things that are really stringent.

889
00:34:28.630 --> 00:34:30.814
First is they don't have the bandwidth.

890
00:34:31.192 --> 00:34:32.134
This is as simple as that,

891
00:34:32.212 --> 00:34:40.681
is that they are into so many other things that getting five minutes of brain time in Europe is just like a struggle.

892
00:34:41.298 --> 00:34:45.064
And so this is the primary thing I would say,

893
00:34:45.220 --> 00:34:47.110
is that they know it's great,

894
00:34:47.111 --> 00:34:47.907
they know it's important,

895
00:34:47.923 --> 00:34:49.048
they know they should do something,

896
00:34:49.376 --> 00:34:52.017
but the organization is not fit.

897
00:34:52.189 --> 00:34:53.673
And you see that in...

898
00:34:54.098 --> 00:34:56.380
Small but also in larger biotech is the same,

899
00:34:56.421 --> 00:34:56.620
right?

900
00:34:57.421 --> 00:35:02.646
Because there are so many other priorities or things that are perceived as other priorities that is there.

901
00:35:03.028 --> 00:35:04.169
So that's the first thing.

902
00:35:04.872 --> 00:35:07.833
And the second one is not necessarily a matter of money.

903
00:35:08.474 --> 00:35:11.817
It's a matter of allocation of resource.

904
00:35:12.474 --> 00:35:15.661
And because when you,

905
00:35:15.677 --> 00:35:15.942
again,

906
00:35:16.021 --> 00:35:19.630
speaking to those CEOs and the CBOs and chief commercial officer,

907
00:35:20.208 --> 00:35:23.161
it's so hard to put a dollar in Europe.

908
00:35:23.626 --> 00:35:29.292
when you've got also an opportunity to put the dollar in the US organization or your commercial organization or in R&D.

909
00:35:31.354 --> 00:35:34.620
And even if they've got these kind of plans in mind,

910
00:35:34.635 --> 00:35:36.737
if you've got the money to do that theoretically,

911
00:35:37.979 --> 00:35:39.870
it's such difficult things to say,

912
00:35:39.917 --> 00:35:40.120
okay,

913
00:35:40.463 --> 00:35:40.698
yes,

914
00:35:40.760 --> 00:35:43.542
we're going to put this money into that to launch in Europe.

915
00:35:45.151 --> 00:35:51.213
And probably based on the fact that they don't know how Europe works in most of the case and this,

916
00:35:51.495 --> 00:35:51.698
okay,

917
00:35:52.417 --> 00:35:53.073
that's the way it is.

918
00:35:54.676 --> 00:35:55.777
And that the perception is,

919
00:35:55.855 --> 00:35:57.318
and what we were discussing earlier,

920
00:35:57.457 --> 00:35:59.461
is that it's complicated,

921
00:36:01.824 --> 00:36:03.722
it's going to be a pain in the neck,

922
00:36:04.004 --> 00:36:07.629
and we're not sure about the return because the prices are not good,

923
00:36:07.668 --> 00:36:07.824
blah,

924
00:36:07.825 --> 00:36:07.965
blah,

925
00:36:07.966 --> 00:36:08.168
blah,

926
00:36:08.169 --> 00:36:09.090
and all these kind of things.

927
00:36:09.105 --> 00:36:11.308
You need to wait.

928
00:36:11.793 --> 00:36:11.965
Yeah,

929
00:36:12.058 --> 00:36:12.168
yeah.

930
00:36:12.277 --> 00:36:13.558
And so they say,

931
00:36:13.590 --> 00:36:13.715
yeah,

932
00:36:13.730 --> 00:36:14.136
we should,

933
00:36:14.152 --> 00:36:14.480
we should,

934
00:36:14.511 --> 00:36:14.840
you're right,

935
00:36:14.855 --> 00:36:15.168
we should,

936
00:36:15.169 --> 00:36:15.480
we should.

937
00:36:15.496 --> 00:36:21.699
But it's getting to the point where they put some resources to do that.

938
00:36:22.034 --> 00:36:23.977
instead of doing something else is very difficult.

939
00:36:24.256 --> 00:36:28.262
So we see the struggle even in a very well-funded biotech.

940
00:36:29.000 --> 00:36:31.906
And that was the interesting thing.

941
00:36:31.961 --> 00:36:36.570
So we are not just dealing with companies who are short of cash,

942
00:36:36.609 --> 00:36:36.828
right?

943
00:36:36.829 --> 00:36:36.906
Yes,

944
00:36:36.907 --> 00:36:38.086
and the third one?

945
00:36:38.586 --> 00:36:40.008
The third one is the cultural,

946
00:36:40.086 --> 00:36:40.773
we alluded to that,

947
00:36:40.820 --> 00:36:43.398
is the cultural bit again,

948
00:36:44.711 --> 00:36:45.820
where you...

949
00:36:48.063 --> 00:36:48.863
Of course we are.

950
00:36:48.943 --> 00:36:49.605
I mean,

951
00:36:49.606 --> 00:36:49.784
again,

952
00:36:49.944 --> 00:36:53.087
I'm talking mostly about the US here and we are Westerners,

953
00:36:53.169 --> 00:36:53.368
right?

954
00:36:53.407 --> 00:36:57.735
So there is a kind of a sense that we think a little bit the same way,

955
00:36:58.376 --> 00:36:59.696
we operate a bit the same way,

956
00:36:59.931 --> 00:37:04.025
and that the US market and the open market are very close,

957
00:37:04.056 --> 00:37:04.259
right?

958
00:37:04.353 --> 00:37:05.165
Actually they are not.

959
00:37:07.962 --> 00:37:15.634
And so this is creating a lot of misconceptions and a lot of things because the assumption is that we are very close.

960
00:37:16.618 --> 00:37:17.159
Interestingly,

961
00:37:18.459 --> 00:37:19.881
the perception that we have,

962
00:37:20.561 --> 00:37:22.983
and when you deal with Chinese companies,

963
00:37:23.002 --> 00:37:23.545
for example,

964
00:37:23.546 --> 00:37:24.366
or Japanese companies,

965
00:37:25.268 --> 00:37:27.588
you know that there is a cultural gap,

966
00:37:28.026 --> 00:37:29.049
and so you take care of that.

967
00:37:30.971 --> 00:37:31.596
And interestingly,

968
00:37:31.635 --> 00:37:43.377
I think it's easier to interact and to really get into these questions or these questions of differences with

969
00:37:44.049 --> 00:37:45.940
Asian or Japanese companies.

970
00:37:46.338 --> 00:37:49.361
than with the US where the assumption is that we're probably the same,

971
00:37:49.402 --> 00:37:49.620
right?

972
00:37:50.761 --> 00:37:51.421
Which is not true.

973
00:37:51.843 --> 00:37:52.085
I mean,

974
00:37:52.124 --> 00:37:52.546
of course,

975
00:37:52.547 --> 00:37:52.683
I mean,

976
00:37:52.684 --> 00:37:55.249
the MA and FDA are doing a lot of common stuff.

977
00:37:55.265 --> 00:37:55.468
I mean,

978
00:37:55.624 --> 00:37:56.351
but that's it,

979
00:37:56.429 --> 00:37:56.609
right?

980
00:37:56.610 --> 00:37:57.687
The rest is so different.

981
00:37:57.866 --> 00:38:01.491
And for

982
00:38:02.359 --> 00:38:03.171
Eastern companies?

983
00:38:03.859 --> 00:38:03.968
So,

984
00:38:05.124 --> 00:38:05.343
I mean,

985
00:38:05.344 --> 00:38:09.999
we had a very interesting conversation with,

986
00:38:10.827 --> 00:38:12.921
and we hope that we can get a deal with an

987
00:38:13.890 --> 00:38:14.468
Asian company.

988
00:38:15.583 --> 00:38:16.464
Chinese in particular.

989
00:38:16.986 --> 00:38:22.896
I think there is really a big tectonic move at the moment in the biotech area where

990
00:38:23.615 --> 00:38:28.865
Chinese organizations are really coming to a point where they are not just creating

991
00:38:29.290 --> 00:38:29.470
you know,

992
00:38:29.471 --> 00:38:31.272
Me Too's or Generics or things like this,

993
00:38:31.273 --> 00:38:32.813
they are really driving innovation.

994
00:38:33.095 --> 00:38:38.782
And they do that in a very professional way,

995
00:38:38.923 --> 00:38:39.618
very neat,

996
00:38:39.837 --> 00:38:40.524
very clean way.

997
00:38:40.962 --> 00:38:46.399
We had access to a few data rooms and we had a chance to look at some data and it's very well done,

998
00:38:46.571 --> 00:38:46.946
honestly.

999
00:38:47.915 --> 00:38:48.774
And so it's going to succeed,

1000
00:38:48.821 --> 00:38:49.024
right,

1001
00:38:49.056 --> 00:38:49.587
at some point.

1002
00:38:51.728 --> 00:38:55.712
And it's going to compete with probably the US and European biotech.

1003
00:38:56.243 --> 00:38:57.696
They've got a very different...

1004
00:38:58.554 --> 00:39:01.536
view that is a bit more long-term,

1005
00:39:01.556 --> 00:39:01.937
I would say,

1006
00:39:03.017 --> 00:39:03.439
overall,

1007
00:39:04.681 --> 00:39:12.310
where they are a bit less concerned by reaching the patients as soon as possible and something like this.

1008
00:39:12.365 --> 00:39:12.708
Of course,

1009
00:39:12.724 --> 00:39:13.130
they want to,

1010
00:39:13.232 --> 00:39:13.591
right?

1011
00:39:14.068 --> 00:39:16.646
But they are really conscious of building on the long run.

1012
00:39:17.146 --> 00:39:17.349
Yes,

1013
00:39:17.568 --> 00:39:19.208
they invested since 20 years.

1014
00:39:19.209 --> 00:39:19.411
Yeah,

1015
00:39:19.677 --> 00:39:20.115
exactly.

1016
00:39:20.380 --> 00:39:20.740
Exactly.

1017
00:39:20.802 --> 00:39:22.943
And they've got a long-term perspective that is interesting.

1018
00:39:23.358 --> 00:39:23.999
And so we've got,

1019
00:39:24.500 --> 00:39:26.722
they are also very interested in our model for this reason as well,

1020
00:39:26.761 --> 00:39:31.527
because they see us as a kind of a step to step into Europe.

1021
00:39:31.590 --> 00:39:33.832
And then they've got their own business in Europe and then they're fine,

1022
00:39:33.910 --> 00:39:34.105
right?

1023
00:39:35.629 --> 00:39:36.754
But the conversation is,

1024
00:39:36.793 --> 00:39:37.535
we'd be much more,

1025
00:39:37.715 --> 00:39:38.769
what's going after that?

1026
00:39:39.738 --> 00:39:40.957
What is happening after the partnership?

1027
00:39:42.394 --> 00:39:45.004
Rather than what is happening during the partnership,

1028
00:39:45.082 --> 00:39:46.597
where when do we get the patients?

1029
00:39:46.644 --> 00:39:48.847
When do we really get a price and so on and so forth?

1030
00:39:48.848 --> 00:39:49.066
Yes.

1031
00:39:49.441 --> 00:39:51.832
And so we've got way more conversation on how to build.

1032
00:39:52.666 --> 00:39:54.969
what's going to be the impact on the long run and so on and so forth.

1033
00:39:54.970 --> 00:39:57.029
So this is a really different conversation.

1034
00:39:57.810 --> 00:39:59.635
But they're going to be there for sure.

1035
00:40:00.498 --> 00:40:06.537
And they're going to be there for a right reason because they're going to bring innovation and really nice assets.

1036
00:40:06.538 --> 00:40:12.639
Then maybe the political situation is maybe changing some biotech strategies.

1037
00:40:14.170 --> 00:40:14.451
I mean,

1038
00:40:15.685 --> 00:40:15.842
yes,

1039
00:40:15.873 --> 00:40:19.154
of course.

1040
00:40:19.170 --> 00:40:21.717
There has been a lot of...

1041
00:40:22.730 --> 00:40:23.271
Things happening,

1042
00:40:23.351 --> 00:40:24.872
particularly since the beginning of the year with the new

1043
00:40:25.372 --> 00:40:26.114
US administration,

1044
00:40:28.716 --> 00:40:29.978
that are touching us indirectly.

1045
00:40:30.177 --> 00:40:32.622
And I think tariffs is not touching us directly,

1046
00:40:33.021 --> 00:40:36.286
because for us it's bringing things into Europe,

1047
00:40:36.325 --> 00:40:38.466
so it's not selling something to US.

1048
00:40:40.614 --> 00:40:41.646
But it's creating uncertainty.

1049
00:40:42.349 --> 00:40:44.130
All the things that are going on with the FDA,

1050
00:40:44.271 --> 00:40:46.989
all the shake-ups in the FDA administration and so on,

1051
00:40:47.271 --> 00:40:48.208
is creating uncertainty.

1052
00:40:51.442 --> 00:40:53.504
conversation on what is called most favored nation,

1053
00:40:55.025 --> 00:41:01.793
which try to align the prices with Europe and the US or try to get the European paying more for innovation.

1054
00:41:03.074 --> 00:41:05.597
This is also creating questions and so on.

1055
00:41:05.613 --> 00:41:13.871
And it's it's it's it's it's delaying for us is delaying that the the the decision in general.

1056
00:41:14.761 --> 00:41:15.543
But it's not necessarily,

1057
00:41:18.043 --> 00:41:18.293
you know.

1058
00:41:18.602 --> 00:41:37.033
Cutting out the discussions too and just the just you know cutting out everything out of Europe and say I mean we've got some companies telling us okay we don't probably don't go to Europe because it's too complicated now it's not but it's not too much of that and then for the Chinese it's also very interesting because they

1059
00:41:37.096 --> 00:41:47.471
or the Chinese or Japanese but the Chinese in particular they want also to not just invest into the US but also they understand that they also need to invest into to your upright.

1060
00:41:47.598 --> 00:41:47.758
Yes.

1061
00:41:48.059 --> 00:41:51.361
And so we've got this this an increased interest,

1062
00:41:51.662 --> 00:41:52.002
I think,

1063
00:41:52.201 --> 00:41:53.744
of of Chinese companies.

1064
00:41:53.982 --> 00:41:54.123
Yes.

1065
00:41:54.443 --> 00:41:55.486
To step in on biotech,

1066
00:41:55.487 --> 00:41:56.584
to step in Europe.

1067
00:41:57.771 --> 00:41:58.826
And there is this I mean,

1068
00:41:58.827 --> 00:41:59.693
in Switzerland here,

1069
00:41:59.771 --> 00:42:00.912
there is this Biogen model,

1070
00:42:02.092 --> 00:42:07.685
B1 model that is also a good a good blueprint for many

1071
00:42:08.451 --> 00:42:09.342
Chinese based companies.

1072
00:42:10.201 --> 00:42:13.326
And why did you decide to to fund the company here,

1073
00:42:13.389 --> 00:42:14.420
to ground the company in Europe?

1074
00:42:14.920 --> 00:42:15.092
Well,

1075
00:42:15.373 --> 00:42:16.029
um,

1076
00:42:16.370 --> 00:42:16.490
Yeah,

1077
00:42:17.171 --> 00:42:17.932
it's a good question.

1078
00:42:18.031 --> 00:42:20.234
Is there a reason or no?

1079
00:42:20.254 --> 00:42:20.473
Yeah,

1080
00:42:20.474 --> 00:42:20.656
I mean,

1081
00:42:20.676 --> 00:42:21.094
there is.

1082
00:42:23.656 --> 00:42:26.563
Besides the fact that some of our funders are Swiss,

1083
00:42:26.641 --> 00:42:28.680
and I used to live in Switzerland for a long time,

1084
00:42:28.719 --> 00:42:38.813
but we believe that Switzerland is really a very good combination of business features.

1085
00:42:38.875 --> 00:42:40.172
I think it's very stable.

1086
00:42:40.219 --> 00:42:40.469
I mean,

1087
00:42:41.031 --> 00:42:41.938
this is business-friendly.

1088
00:42:41.953 --> 00:42:42.156
I mean,

1089
00:42:42.172 --> 00:42:43.531
this is all the things that is known,

1090
00:42:43.578 --> 00:42:43.781
right?

1091
00:42:44.156 --> 00:42:45.344
But what is very important is,

1092
00:42:45.345 --> 00:42:45.563
I think,

1093
00:42:46.815 --> 00:42:47.776
If you look at Europe,

1094
00:42:47.816 --> 00:42:50.437
this is the largest hub of talent,

1095
00:42:51.120 --> 00:42:51.441
period.

1096
00:42:53.941 --> 00:42:56.343
There is no other competing area,

1097
00:42:56.562 --> 00:43:00.210
at least from commercial talents or late-stage talents,

1098
00:43:00.249 --> 00:43:00.648
I would say.

1099
00:43:01.429 --> 00:43:06.054
And so our model is about creating businesses,

1100
00:43:06.179 --> 00:43:07.757
so it's about hiring also people,

1101
00:43:07.773 --> 00:43:11.835
it's about having those competencies to have excellence in-house,

1102
00:43:11.836 --> 00:43:14.476
and so it's very important that we are in the middle of that.

1103
00:43:14.914 --> 00:43:18.577
and that we can just tap into this fantastic ecosystem of Switzerland.

1104
00:43:19.018 --> 00:43:20.299
So yeah,

1105
00:43:20.300 --> 00:43:25.768
I would say first is probably the talent pool and second is probably the business friendly elements.

1106
00:43:25.987 --> 00:43:27.948
And yes,

1107
00:43:27.963 --> 00:43:29.206
talking about the talents you need.

1108
00:43:33.861 --> 00:43:35.084
Can you explain a bit?

1109
00:43:35.205 --> 00:43:38.287
The way we work is twofold actually.

1110
00:43:38.388 --> 00:43:40.232
We've got our own platform,

1111
00:43:40.287 --> 00:43:41.068
so XCube.bio,

1112
00:43:41.131 --> 00:43:47.568
which is providing services and providing also expertise to set up the new calls,

1113
00:43:47.615 --> 00:43:49.052
to set up the new entities and so on.

1114
00:43:49.396 --> 00:43:52.599
And for that we've got a network of talents.

1115
00:43:52.646 --> 00:43:57.302
We've got probably close to 50 experts.

1116
00:43:58.859 --> 00:43:59.380
in our networks,

1117
00:43:59.381 --> 00:44:01.382
in all the functions that you can imagine.

1118
00:44:03.345 --> 00:44:11.431
And we need to have a very comprehensive and thorough network here because we are dealing with companies with very specific technologies.

1119
00:44:11.532 --> 00:44:13.939
So when you've got a radiopharmaceutical company,

1120
00:44:14.376 --> 00:44:16.314
you cannot just get your random

1121
00:44:17.392 --> 00:44:19.220
CMC or your random regulatory.

1122
00:44:19.221 --> 00:44:20.814
You need someone who knows this,

1123
00:44:20.876 --> 00:44:21.079
right?

1124
00:44:21.876 --> 00:44:22.798
And so we've got...

1125
00:44:24.345 --> 00:44:26.345
It's very important for us to have this talent pool.

1126
00:44:26.582 --> 00:44:27.203
So first thing.

1127
00:44:27.303 --> 00:44:31.045
The second element is that when we create the new code,

1128
00:44:31.706 --> 00:44:32.948
we need to populate the new code.

1129
00:44:33.147 --> 00:44:33.549
In general,

1130
00:44:33.550 --> 00:44:37.170
we create an entity here in Switzerland that is going to deploy across Europe.

1131
00:44:37.569 --> 00:44:41.256
But we put the headquarter here.

1132
00:44:41.475 --> 00:44:48.459
And so this is where we need to have people with the commercial excellence expertise,

1133
00:44:49.428 --> 00:44:49.741
again,

1134
00:44:51.834 --> 00:44:52.850
in various disease areas.

1135
00:44:52.913 --> 00:44:53.022
So,

1136
00:44:53.023 --> 00:44:53.147
uh,

1137
00:44:53.709 --> 00:44:53.834
okay.

1138
00:44:55.219 --> 00:45:03.886
We go from a neuroscience with something in very specific neuroscience elements to rare oncology or rare disease and so on.

1139
00:45:03.887 --> 00:45:12.183
And you need different profiles and you need to have this kind of diversity around you to be able to ramp up your organization.

1140
00:45:12.824 --> 00:45:12.964
And

1141
00:45:15.683 --> 00:45:23.011
I don't see too many other countries with that level of diversity and the breadth.

1142
00:45:23.759 --> 00:45:25.721
of talents that exist in Europe at least.

1143
00:45:26.041 --> 00:45:26.541
Okay,

1144
00:45:27.561 --> 00:45:27.721
yes.

1145
00:45:27.722 --> 00:45:28.502
To be able to have an...

1146
00:45:29.385 --> 00:45:29.565
Yes,

1147
00:45:29.783 --> 00:45:30.467
to deal with Europe.

1148
00:45:31.147 --> 00:45:31.303
Yeah.

1149
00:45:31.304 --> 00:45:31.444
Okay.

1150
00:45:33.131 --> 00:45:34.069
We still have a few minutes.

1151
00:45:34.070 --> 00:45:35.912
I would like to talk about the future.

1152
00:45:36.287 --> 00:45:37.873
Yeah.

1153
00:45:37.874 --> 00:45:40.178
What do you think is the biggest threat of this system,

1154
00:45:40.897 --> 00:45:41.850
this European system?

1155
00:45:45.397 --> 00:45:46.287
That's a broad question.

1156
00:45:46.288 --> 00:45:46.787
Yes.

1157
00:45:52.518 --> 00:45:55.398
I struggle to answer this question to be honest because we don't see that as a threat,

1158
00:45:55.480 --> 00:45:55.679
right?

1159
00:45:56.398 --> 00:45:59.777
The way we try to think about it is as a given,

1160
00:45:59.879 --> 00:46:00.136
right?

1161
00:46:00.340 --> 00:46:02.183
And this is the way it is at the moment.

1162
00:46:03.301 --> 00:46:04.465
How do we make the best of that?

1163
00:46:05.160 --> 00:46:05.980
And how do we,

1164
00:46:07.566 --> 00:46:07.801
you know,

1165
00:46:08.176 --> 00:46:12.176
play with the system to be able to reach the patient in a viable,

1166
00:46:12.426 --> 00:46:13.707
in a financially viable way,

1167
00:46:13.816 --> 00:46:14.066
right,

1168
00:46:14.910 --> 00:46:15.597
for biotech?

1169
00:46:16.082 --> 00:46:16.207
So

1170
00:46:16.879 --> 00:46:17.426
I would say...

1171
00:46:19.958 --> 00:46:20.499
I would say,

1172
00:46:21.880 --> 00:46:22.241
of course,

1173
00:46:22.242 --> 00:46:30.284
the difficulty is going to be the budget and the prioritization of the budget of healthcare systems in Europe.

1174
00:46:30.347 --> 00:46:33.487
Where do you...

1175
00:46:33.488 --> 00:46:34.815
You know you've got a limited budget.

1176
00:46:34.909 --> 00:46:37.097
Where do you put your efforts?

1177
00:46:37.440 --> 00:46:43.628
Do you want to go into very specific diseases that may be a bit more expensive,

1178
00:46:43.769 --> 00:46:48.222
but very neglected or very difficult to treat things?

1179
00:46:48.347 --> 00:46:49.206
Or are you going to...

1180
00:46:50.563 --> 00:47:06.123
to go into or invest your money into you know early stage or just you know primary medicine all these kind of things and we see this is not always very good we see in some countries that there is a lot of money spent on you know analgesics

1181
00:47:06.201 --> 00:47:17.576
and first-line things and reimburse very very well right and then it's putting pressure on you know the last cancer treatments that is

1182
00:47:17.766 --> 00:47:19.146
probably going to save the life of someone,

1183
00:47:19.206 --> 00:47:19.406
right?

1184
00:47:19.507 --> 00:47:20.366
But a few,

1185
00:47:20.647 --> 00:47:20.847
right?

1186
00:47:21.487 --> 00:47:28.948
And so this is probably this unclear prioritization that is probably a threat,

1187
00:47:29.409 --> 00:47:29.831
I believe.

1188
00:47:31.409 --> 00:47:33.706
The fit for precision medicine,

1189
00:47:33.722 --> 00:47:34.175
if you want,

1190
00:47:34.409 --> 00:47:34.815
at the end.

1191
00:47:34.831 --> 00:47:40.315
So are we going to get into a world where we take care more of this kind of very difficult things?

1192
00:47:41.018 --> 00:47:41.347
Unclear,

1193
00:47:41.393 --> 00:47:41.675
you say.

1194
00:47:42.956 --> 00:47:44.050
So I would say that.

1195
00:47:45.410 --> 00:47:45.530
Yeah,

1196
00:47:45.531 --> 00:47:47.653
the strategy is unclear to what we want to...

1197
00:47:48.153 --> 00:47:48.354
Okay.

1198
00:47:49.635 --> 00:47:49.815
Yes,

1199
00:47:51.256 --> 00:47:57.959
what's interesting is you're in the middle of innovation and science and product.

1200
00:47:58.686 --> 00:48:06.897
Then it's also maybe a way to invest in science and to push science.

1201
00:48:06.898 --> 00:48:07.116
For you,

1202
00:48:07.117 --> 00:48:11.991
it may be difficult because you bring innovation from abroad.

1203
00:48:14.238 --> 00:48:14.538
Yeah,

1204
00:48:14.539 --> 00:48:14.679
I mean,

1205
00:48:15.239 --> 00:48:16.440
we bring solutions for patients,

1206
00:48:16.441 --> 00:48:18.462
so we bring solutions for healthcare,

1207
00:48:18.563 --> 00:48:18.782
right?

1208
00:48:20.423 --> 00:48:20.665
I mean,

1209
00:48:22.587 --> 00:48:26.173
I would hope that there is more of the open innovations coming,

1210
00:48:26.352 --> 00:48:28.696
and it looks,

1211
00:48:28.876 --> 00:48:29.235
it seems...

1212
00:48:29.450 --> 00:48:32.090
The European institutions are getting there slowly,

1213
00:48:32.231 --> 00:48:35.510
but they probably need to muscle up,

1214
00:48:35.511 --> 00:48:35.772
of course,

1215
00:48:35.773 --> 00:48:38.569
the investments in early stage biotech and things like this.

1216
00:48:39.873 --> 00:48:43.334
Where we are focused is really probably a bit more on,

1217
00:48:43.733 --> 00:48:43.975
again,

1218
00:48:43.976 --> 00:48:47.069
the delivery to the patients and how we have,

1219
00:48:47.787 --> 00:48:48.600
at the end of the day,

1220
00:48:50.959 --> 00:48:52.209
a more healthy population,

1221
00:48:52.241 --> 00:48:54.662
or at least some people are really treated better.

1222
00:48:54.741 --> 00:48:58.069
right and the and here yes there is

1223
00:48:58.730 --> 00:49:03.294
There is already a lot to do because there are those less staged assets that are ready.

1224
00:49:03.794 --> 00:49:05.415
And there is really a tsunami that is coming.

1225
00:49:06.239 --> 00:49:14.466
So the question of the privatization is going to be very acute at some point in payers'

1226
00:49:14.489 --> 00:49:20.630
discussion and in budget and political discussions in some countries because either you accept to

1227
00:49:22.194 --> 00:49:25.017
Not fund some medicine and lag a little bit behind,

1228
00:49:25.437 --> 00:49:26.917
which is already starting to see,

1229
00:49:27.378 --> 00:49:28.722
we start to see in some countries,

1230
00:49:28.781 --> 00:49:28.941
right?

1231
00:49:29.062 --> 00:49:36.746
Lag a little bit behind in terms of innovations and you leave patients without solutions that exist elsewhere in the world.

1232
00:49:38.597 --> 00:49:40.566
Or you make the decisions to really fund that,

1233
00:49:40.628 --> 00:49:47.035
making sure that the access is preserved for assets that are well demonstrated for adding values.

1234
00:49:47.457 --> 00:49:50.566
And then you do maybe a little bit less on other things,

1235
00:49:50.644 --> 00:49:50.816
right,

1236
00:49:50.878 --> 00:49:51.222
that are...

1237
00:49:53.704 --> 00:49:54.585
less life-threatening,

1238
00:49:55.766 --> 00:49:56.344
less serious.

1239
00:49:56.387 --> 00:49:57.727
I don't know how to qualify that,

1240
00:49:57.790 --> 00:50:01.610
but there is this shift,

1241
00:50:01.688 --> 00:50:01.915
right?

1242
00:50:03.954 --> 00:50:08.860
And probably flexibility is going to be very important to do,

1243
00:50:08.891 --> 00:50:15.360
and this is not always the most evident features of a healthcare system that are not that flexible.

1244
00:50:15.532 --> 00:50:15.782
And so,

1245
00:50:16.251 --> 00:50:16.360
yeah,

1246
00:50:16.501 --> 00:50:18.173
that's where the tension may come.

1247
00:50:18.594 --> 00:50:19.251
But we are here to,

1248
00:50:19.454 --> 00:50:19.704
I mean,

1249
00:50:19.735 --> 00:50:20.626
we see ourselves as...

1250
00:50:21.118 --> 00:50:21.779
here to help,

1251
00:50:21.839 --> 00:50:22.039
right?

1252
00:50:22.119 --> 00:50:23.580
Not just to fight.

1253
00:50:24.361 --> 00:50:29.709
It's really about how we can do the best with this system and try to make innovation affordable.

1254
00:50:29.710 --> 00:50:29.764
Yes,

1255
00:50:29.765 --> 00:50:30.787
but it's also interesting because in front of you,

1256
00:50:30.788 --> 00:50:34.990
it's the big pharma model,

1257
00:50:35.389 --> 00:50:37.092
which is not flexible too.

1258
00:50:37.093 --> 00:50:37.232
Yeah,

1259
00:50:37.357 --> 00:50:37.576
yeah.

1260
00:50:37.577 --> 00:50:37.717
I mean,

1261
00:50:38.232 --> 00:50:38.529
they've got,

1262
00:50:38.670 --> 00:50:38.998
again,

1263
00:50:38.999 --> 00:50:39.217
I mean,

1264
00:50:39.279 --> 00:50:41.420
they've got their merits and they've got such a,

1265
00:50:41.436 --> 00:50:41.717
I mean,

1266
00:50:41.764 --> 00:50:42.201
I'm not,

1267
00:50:42.717 --> 00:50:43.357
I don't want to blame

1268
00:50:43.920 --> 00:50:45.764
Big Pharma because it's not about this,

1269
00:50:45.795 --> 00:50:48.592
but they've got merits in bringing,

1270
00:50:49.170 --> 00:50:49.389
you know,

1271
00:50:49.404 --> 00:50:50.514
this large scale innovation.

1272
00:50:50.618 --> 00:50:54.522
And they do that in a great way.

1273
00:50:54.763 --> 00:50:56.442
But there are other things to do,

1274
00:50:56.563 --> 00:50:56.782
right?

1275
00:50:56.825 --> 00:51:03.227
And there are all these smaller disease areas where flexibility is probably more important.

1276
00:51:03.228 --> 00:51:03.352
Yes,

1277
00:51:03.353 --> 00:51:04.227
the point is in front of problems,

1278
00:51:04.313 --> 00:51:05.196
what do you propose?

1279
00:51:05.251 --> 00:51:06.595
What can you adapt?

1280
00:51:08.321 --> 00:51:16.227
And so we see so many drugs that are getting really close to market.

1281
00:51:17.198 --> 00:51:17.738
At the moment,

1282
00:51:17.758 --> 00:51:19.479
there is no plan to go to Europe,

1283
00:51:19.480 --> 00:51:20.860
and that's a shame.

1284
00:51:21.938 --> 00:51:22.180
I mean,

1285
00:51:22.219 --> 00:51:23.141
among the advanced markets,

1286
00:51:23.142 --> 00:51:25.278
this is the biggest patient market,

1287
00:51:25.301 --> 00:51:26.364
if I may say it like this,

1288
00:51:26.365 --> 00:51:27.184
or the patient pool,

1289
00:51:27.239 --> 00:51:27.481
right?

1290
00:51:27.637 --> 00:51:31.239
There is much more patients than in the U.S.

1291
00:51:31.278 --> 00:51:31.543
alone.

1292
00:51:31.582 --> 00:51:33.285
So you cannot just,

1293
00:51:33.723 --> 00:51:33.989
I mean,

1294
00:51:34.129 --> 00:51:34.598
in my view,

1295
00:51:34.645 --> 00:51:35.754
you cannot just go without,

1296
00:51:35.926 --> 00:51:36.129
right?

1297
00:51:36.160 --> 00:51:36.879
You have to be there.

1298
00:51:37.020 --> 00:51:37.676
You have to be in Europe.

1299
00:51:37.739 --> 00:51:37.895
Yes,

1300
00:51:37.942 --> 00:51:39.504
and how do you see your company in five years?

1301
00:51:40.223 --> 00:51:40.348
So,

1302
00:51:40.957 --> 00:51:41.082
yeah,

1303
00:51:41.160 --> 00:51:41.723
good questions.

1304
00:51:42.806 --> 00:51:43.587
With a lot of NUCO,

1305
00:51:43.747 --> 00:51:44.627
a lot of partners,

1306
00:51:45.610 --> 00:51:47.432
we are building the platform to be able to scale.

1307
00:51:47.490 --> 00:51:48.514
So that's really about,

1308
00:51:49.092 --> 00:51:50.615
it's not just about having one or two,

1309
00:51:50.717 --> 00:51:54.436
it's really just being able to go a lot.

1310
00:51:54.897 --> 00:51:57.061
There are also other geographies that we're interested in.

1311
00:52:00.381 --> 00:52:01.412
Probably bias because

1312
00:52:02.100 --> 00:52:07.428
I lived in Japan for some time and I think the Japanese market is also in a way...

1313
00:52:08.862 --> 00:52:10.704
I'll share common things with the European one.

1314
00:52:11.064 --> 00:52:12.365
It's very difficult to get in.

1315
00:52:12.566 --> 00:52:12.685
Okay.

1316
00:52:13.668 --> 00:52:14.367
But once you're in,

1317
00:52:14.547 --> 00:52:16.187
it's a fantastic healthcare system.

1318
00:52:17.148 --> 00:52:17.429
Again,

1319
00:52:18.289 --> 00:52:19.570
very well organized,

1320
00:52:19.594 --> 00:52:20.312
very well funded.

1321
00:52:22.234 --> 00:52:23.015
You need to step in,

1322
00:52:23.016 --> 00:52:24.695
and it's difficult for multiple reasons.

1323
00:52:24.696 --> 00:52:25.320
So that would be,

1324
00:52:26.258 --> 00:52:26.601
I mean,

1325
00:52:26.633 --> 00:52:31.929
I would love to really duplicate or just extend this model to other geographies like

1326
00:52:32.304 --> 00:52:33.445
Japan, Australia.

1327
00:52:34.289 --> 00:52:37.758
We are lucky to have a partner in Canada as well that is already.

1328
00:52:37.773 --> 00:52:38.008
Okay.

1329
00:52:38.990 --> 00:52:39.611
helping us there.

1330
00:52:41.894 --> 00:52:45.575
And do you think it can be also an interesting model?

1331
00:52:46.638 --> 00:52:46.817
Okay,

1332
00:52:46.958 --> 00:52:50.521
maybe to try for big pharmas in the beginning of the launch?

1333
00:52:51.505 --> 00:52:51.903
Yeah,

1334
00:52:51.904 --> 00:52:52.060
I mean...

1335
00:52:52.224 --> 00:52:52.607
Just to...

1336
00:52:55.099 --> 00:52:55.942
I don't know if you try,

1337
00:52:56.052 --> 00:52:58.114
but to improve and to...

1338
00:52:58.115 --> 00:52:58.708
We haven't yet,

1339
00:52:58.786 --> 00:53:03.286
but it's a very nice idea.

1340
00:53:03.287 --> 00:53:07.458
I think there are in the portfolio of many large farmer.

1341
00:53:08.358 --> 00:53:13.604
Drugs that are not prioritized for the reason we talk to,

1342
00:53:13.862 --> 00:53:15.007
that's not big enough,

1343
00:53:15.026 --> 00:53:15.444
blah blah blah,

1344
00:53:15.445 --> 00:53:15.804
and so on.

1345
00:53:17.304 --> 00:53:24.601
Where you can imagine that we can be a partner of this biofarm and just put that on the market and just give it back at some point.

1346
00:53:25.772 --> 00:53:26.335
So yeah,

1347
00:53:26.772 --> 00:53:28.241
it can be a model as well.

1348
00:53:29.903 --> 00:53:30.303
I would say.

1349
00:53:30.583 --> 00:53:30.763
Okay,

1350
00:53:31.484 --> 00:53:35.226
now we will conclude with the advice you could share.

1351
00:53:35.710 --> 00:53:38.749
Maybe which advice you can give for

1352
00:53:40.015 --> 00:53:41.530
European policymakers?

1353
00:53:42.093 --> 00:53:42.296
Wow,

1354
00:53:43.335 --> 00:53:44.038
policymakers?

1355
00:53:44.874 --> 00:53:45.116
Yeah,

1356
00:53:45.117 --> 00:53:45.280
I mean...

1357
00:53:46.898 --> 00:53:49.960
Because it's a place where we try to understand each other.

1358
00:53:49.961 --> 00:53:50.085
Yeah,

1359
00:53:50.226 --> 00:53:50.757
yeah,

1360
00:53:50.758 --> 00:53:50.851
no,

1361
00:53:50.852 --> 00:53:52.304
of course.

1362
00:53:52.305 --> 00:53:54.804
I think be flexible.

1363
00:53:54.805 --> 00:53:54.960
Yes,

1364
00:53:55.007 --> 00:53:55.570
give a strategy,

1365
00:53:55.976 --> 00:53:56.163
Kim.

1366
00:53:56.304 --> 00:53:56.570
Yeah,

1367
00:53:56.571 --> 00:53:57.257
be flexible.

1368
00:53:58.762 --> 00:54:01.725
Make sure you do the right priority in terms of funding.

1369
00:54:02.086 --> 00:54:02.586
You explained it,

1370
00:54:02.587 --> 00:54:02.705
yeah.

1371
00:54:03.428 --> 00:54:04.006
And that's a...

1372
00:54:05.869 --> 00:54:06.967
Whatever the priorities are,

1373
00:54:07.146 --> 00:54:08.412
that is clear,

1374
00:54:08.490 --> 00:54:08.771
right?

1375
00:54:08.810 --> 00:54:11.935
And that we can have a conversation on the right basis,

1376
00:54:12.037 --> 00:54:12.256
right?

1377
00:54:12.271 --> 00:54:13.100
Okay.

1378
00:54:13.101 --> 00:54:13.318
And so,

1379
00:54:13.881 --> 00:54:14.959
yeah,

1380
00:54:14.960 --> 00:54:16.912
I would say that if I have to say something.

1381
00:54:17.037 --> 00:54:17.896
Which advice you want to...

1382
00:54:19.459 --> 00:54:20.631
you could give for a biotech CEO?

1383
00:54:21.506 --> 00:54:22.521
I would tell them,

1384
00:54:22.693 --> 00:54:23.631
don't neglect Europe.

1385
00:54:24.740 --> 00:54:25.709
It's a great market.

1386
00:54:25.990 --> 00:54:27.131
It's a great...

1387
00:54:27.218 --> 00:54:30.602
place to also learn for them.

1388
00:54:31.444 --> 00:54:33.303
And because they are good scientists,

1389
00:54:33.304 --> 00:54:34.405
they are good doctors,

1390
00:54:35.248 --> 00:54:36.170
they are a lot of patients.

1391
00:54:37.365 --> 00:54:42.115
And so be prepared and grow the right muscle to get there.

1392
00:54:42.631 --> 00:54:44.147
And we are here to help if need be.

1393
00:54:44.428 --> 00:54:44.662
Yeah,

1394
00:54:44.850 --> 00:54:45.100
okay.

1395
00:54:45.537 --> 00:54:45.834
Thank you.

1396
00:54:46.100 --> 00:54:46.709
Thank you very much.

1397
00:54:47.678 --> 00:54:48.600
Very nice.

1398
00:54:48.601 --> 00:54:48.975
Thank you.

1399
00:54:49.334 --> 00:54:56.350
I think what's interesting is what you're doing is bigger than just building a business it's maybe trying to

1400
00:54:56.802 --> 00:54:57.783
potentially save lives.

1401
00:54:59.203 --> 00:54:59.725
Yeah,

1402
00:54:59.726 --> 00:54:59.885
I mean,

1403
00:55:00.205 --> 00:55:00.366
yes,

1404
00:55:00.385 --> 00:55:01.324
thank you for saying that.

1405
00:55:03.930 --> 00:55:07.051
I think we...

1406
00:55:07.574 --> 00:55:10.699
The thing is that I never woke up in the morning just saying,

1407
00:55:10.700 --> 00:55:10.817
hey,

1408
00:55:10.818 --> 00:55:11.754
I'm going to build a business,

1409
00:55:11.840 --> 00:55:12.035
right?

1410
00:55:12.059 --> 00:55:18.028
It was really just kind of cracking a challenge or cracking these questions of how we can do things differently,

1411
00:55:18.090 --> 00:55:18.309
better,

1412
00:55:18.403 --> 00:55:18.824
and so on.

1413
00:55:19.481 --> 00:55:20.871
And that's what we're trying to achieve still.

1414
00:55:21.028 --> 00:55:21.731
And I'm lucky.

1415
00:55:22.231 --> 00:55:24.684
I have a lot of co-founders.

1416
00:55:25.686 --> 00:55:27.708
and partners that are thinking the same way.

1417
00:55:27.749 --> 00:55:28.549
So yes,

1418
00:55:28.588 --> 00:55:32.754
what I like is trying to be skin in the game in this process.

1419
00:55:32.852 --> 00:55:32.993
Yeah,

1420
00:55:33.372 --> 00:55:33.958
yeah,

1421
00:55:34.497 --> 00:55:34.872
we have to.

1422
00:55:35.833 --> 00:55:39.239
If our auditors want to get in contact with you,

1423
00:55:39.559 --> 00:55:40.262
where can they go?

1424
00:55:40.661 --> 00:55:40.825
Well,

1425
00:55:41.223 --> 00:55:42.262
we are active on LinkedIn,

1426
00:55:42.340 --> 00:55:42.465
so

1427
00:55:43.231 --> 00:55:44.028
I'm happy to.

1428
00:55:44.325 --> 00:55:45.965
The LinkedIn page is there.

1429
00:55:47.590 --> 00:55:47.872
Yes,

1430
00:55:48.762 --> 00:55:51.950
I can give you my number and it's very easy to reach.

1431
00:55:52.090 --> 00:55:53.731
There's no question.

1432
00:55:53.747 --> 00:55:54.934
I'm very active and we always

1433
00:55:56.078 --> 00:56:07.559
value also having contact with experts in Europe that also help us just being stronger,

1434
00:56:07.621 --> 00:56:10.457
being more relevant in the market

1435
00:56:10.981 --> 00:56:12.067
I give you a question like this

1436
00:56:13.176 --> 00:56:13.957
What do we need today?

1437
00:56:14.989 --> 00:56:23.582
We need always more funding that's one that's the easy one the easy or the most complicated that he does.

1438
00:56:24.266 --> 00:56:28.350
What we need as well is really talents and more talents.

1439
00:56:30.010 --> 00:56:38.338
We are always looking for very specific profiles because we are coming across biotechs with very specific needs,

1440
00:56:38.440 --> 00:56:38.659
right?

1441
00:56:38.878 --> 00:56:42.260
And so all the people with experience in the market,

1442
00:56:42.588 --> 00:56:43.323
whatever the experience,

1443
00:56:43.324 --> 00:56:48.463
we are always very keen to connect and if they can help us and if we can help them,

1444
00:56:49.198 --> 00:56:49.854
that's the way to go.

1445
00:56:49.855 --> 00:56:50.307
Super.

1446
00:56:51.073 --> 00:56:51.370
Thank you.

1447
00:56:51.526 --> 00:56:51.807
Thank you.

1448
00:56:53.022 --> 00:56:55.164
Thank you for listening to this episode.

1449
00:56:55.445 --> 00:56:57.726
It was great to share this story about connection,

1450
00:56:57.847 --> 00:57:00.629
inspiration and creating a positive legacy.

1451
00:57:00.910 --> 00:57:05.457
Don't forget to subscribe to stay updated on future episodes and talk to you soon.

1452
00:57:05.816 --> 00:57:06.238
A bientôt.