[EN] - How to fix Europe's access gap in Biopharma

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Europe doesn't lack talent.

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It doesn't lack scientists.

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It doesn't lack biotech ambition.

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What it lacks is structure.

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Access pathways are fragmented.

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Market entry authorizations are complex.

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Reimbursements remain national and slow.

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Pierre-Henri Belin offers a clear approach,

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pooling our strengths,

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making Europe attractive for research once again,

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ensuring that innovation actually reaches patients,

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because research without access is only a half-success.

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If Europe wants to remain a scientific leader,

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it must become a predictable market.

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And this raises a deeper question for us.

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Is the pharma business model still aligned with the expectations of public societies?

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When you look at the statistics,

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and these aren't my statistics,

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they're AQVIA statistics,

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there are more than 100 drugs that have been launched in the US in the last five years that are not in Europe,

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right?

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And we see this number is very constantly growing.

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If you want to build...

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a commercial organization or commercial platform in Europe,

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you cannot just translate what you've done in the US.

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It's very different muscles.

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You need different capabilities.

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You need to think about different things and so on.

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I think we've got 10,000 orphans and yeah,

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most of them are not there.

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And the large majority impacts kids,

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right,

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as well.

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So it's really helping biopharma to make the last mile to their patients,

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to the patients.

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They've done,

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many of them have done an incredible work.

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The last piece is very important and very often is a bit neglected because it's not seen by this R&D organization.

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It's not seen as a challenge.

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What we try to do is to help them just evolve to the next step and really make sure that they don't miss what we call really the last mile.

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Welcome to Farmer Minds.

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Today I'm with Pierre-Henri Belin and I just want to say that I'm very happy to be here with you,

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Pierre-Henri.

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It's a real pleasure to have you here and thank you so much for joining me today.

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Yeah,

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thank you very much for inviting me.

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Very happy as well.

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Pleasure to be in this very famous podcast now.

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Yes.

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And to share your story.

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Exactly.

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In a few words about what you've done,

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you've worked your whole career at

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Johnson & Johnson and you decided to become an entrepreneur.

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Made the jump in 2022,

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very hands,

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yes.

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And with Xcube Bio.

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And we are a platform that helps big pharma,

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little pharma,

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late stage biopharma to really get into Europe in the best possible way.

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So we are a market entry accelerator.

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Okay,

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so the reason I wanted you here today is because you told me and you mentioned before that since,

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yes,

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this month and over these past few years,

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you have met with 100 different biotechs that are currently operating abroad,

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specifically outside of Europe.

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Through these meetings,

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you discovered that maybe 100 different drugs were available outside.

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Really interesting drugs for patients,

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but not existing in Europe.

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When you look at the statistics,

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and it's not my statistics,

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it's IQVIA statistics,

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there are more than 100 drugs.

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that have been launched in the US in the last five years that are not in Europe,

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right?

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And we see this number is very constantly growing,

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unfortunately.

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And it means just,

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it's as simple as that,

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is that patients in Europe are not treated the same way as in the US and have not access to the same type of drugs,

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right?

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And here we're really talking about new molecular entities.

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So not even,

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you know,

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biosimilars or generics or things like that,

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or MeToo's,

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yeah.

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What opened your eyes to this problem?

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Because you were in a big pharma?

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Yeah.

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The reflection we had was that an advisory was nice,

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was useful,

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but was not maybe enough.

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And there was a need for more than that.

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This was also in the context a couple of years ago,

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or even more now,

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maybe five years ago,

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where you had these very high profile biotechs coming to Europe,

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like Bluebird Bio,

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like AGIOS,

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others,

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and just running into problems along the way,

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you know,

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and sometimes it can be a bit frustrating.

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And those biotechs were first.

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Great assets,

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great teams,

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very well advised.

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And so there was really something about the execution,

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right,

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that needed to be sorted.

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And typically Bluebird Bio,

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for example,

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or AGIOS,

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and I mean great companies.

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I mean,

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we met with the executive.

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They are absolutely great.

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So this is not a competency.

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This is about making it work and having the right sequence of execution,

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having the right angle,

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strategic angles.

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understanding in a deep way the stakeholders,

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how payers would work,

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for example,

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how a hospital or a KOL would work in a different way than in the US,

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right?

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And so this is all these things that need to be there.

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Okay.

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Okay.

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And how did you start?

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And so we decided and we tested the idea of creating what is called in financial jargon,

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an SPV,

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a special purpose vehicle,

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or a NEWCO.

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So creating basically a company in Europe that would be a shell in which we would...

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create and execute the launch and the entry of the partner.

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So we would offer

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Biopharma the opportunity to create with us a small company,

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a different company,

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an empty shell called Nuco.

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That would be the nucleus of the entity that you need to deploy across Europe.

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And we would use this entity as an execution vehicle and we would service and we would,

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I mean,

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provide expertise to this entity to grow it step by step.

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according to a very clean,

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very sequenced execution plan.

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We are not doing a licensing because we are just building organization and we are building on behalf of an organization according to a plan that we believe is efficient and is mitigating the risk of getting to Europe.

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So this is really appreciated.

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We see a lot of CEOs in particular who are at the beginning of their business,

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you know,

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and they have got it.

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It is really hard for them sometimes to give away to

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a licensing organization,

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something that they spent years and years to develop,

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right?

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Yes.

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And so here they stay in control.

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We are a temporary partnership,

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so we are vanishing at some point once we have done the job.

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But we have got skin in the game with them also because we are investing in Europe for them.

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Yes.

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Okay.

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And how is it going today?

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Have you already?

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So we've got it.

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Yeah,

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we've got it.

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We progressed a lot of companies.

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We are closing one,

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our first one,

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very soon that I can...

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I cannot just give all the things.

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It gets closed?

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Yeah,

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out.

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And we've got three or four that are really on the short term.

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And it's very exciting because they are very exciting assets in a sense that it's very innovative.

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We see,

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I mean,

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for patients,

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it's going to be great and so on.

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So really,

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really,

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really good,

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really good thing.

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Okay.

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What I like,

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yes?

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Maybe just the most,

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I mean,

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just to tell you,

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the model,

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I think,

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is interesting in the sense that it's also...

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I would say filtering out,

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it's maybe a bit strong,

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but incentivizing the type of company with R&D with a second asset or second indication.

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They like particularly our model because they know they're going to have their own structure for the second asset and so on.

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And you've got this kind of company with a platform with a lot of science.

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It's not necessarily the one shot you can find or say that you've got one asset they want to monetize quick and quick.

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I mean,

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this can be also great.

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I mean,

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this can be also great assets sometimes,

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but here we've got this kind of very passionate people.

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And yes,

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and that's adding the motivation to work along them and,

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yeah,

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get their science to the final goal,

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right?

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To the patients ultimately,

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yeah.

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Yes,

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and

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I was wondering,

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is it useful or can it be useful also for European biotechs who want to address the European markets?

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And which start with,

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we start with the science.

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That's interesting.

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Yeah,

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I think our initial assumptions was that's going to be a U.S.

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play.

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Yeah,

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because this is where you've got,

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of course,

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a lot of innovation.

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Well,

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needless to say,

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but also you've got a lot of this gap that exists in terms of the cultural gap on the way things should happen.

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But we realize also that,

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yeah,

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European biopharma,

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we're also potentially interested by this model and actually not just them.

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And,

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well,

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we may talk about this later on.

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We see more and more innovation and particularly Chinese companies with great potential and that are also interested in this model.

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You said we are in a moment where innovation is rising a lot,

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exploding,

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and we are in a certain world.

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And we didn't talk about this,

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but also budget to pay for drugs,

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for innovative drugs in Europe are limited.

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Yep,

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sure.

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And

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And then it's,

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yes,

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actually the first step in the cold water for you is really,

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yes,

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to decide to do something new,

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to propose something.

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And I like the idea because,

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you know,

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what exists and you have to create.

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Someone has to create.

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And yes,

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just try.

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And what is maybe the perception of the payers?

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What could they gain from this?

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What is the value for them too?

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Because it's also an end point.

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Yeah,

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of course.

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Well,

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I mean,

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I think that the payers are not.

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You know,

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they are not evil,

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right?

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They want value.

276
00:09:19.206 --> 00:09:25.050
And so they want to make sure that what you bring to the market is going to be a real value for the health care system overall,

277
00:09:25.090 --> 00:09:25.730
for the patient,

278
00:09:25.750 --> 00:09:26.211
of course,

279
00:09:26.571 --> 00:09:28.612
but also in general for the health care system.

280
00:09:29.053 --> 00:09:36.978
So if you bring an innovation that is a real innovation where you've got the right endpoints and you've got the right demonstration,

281
00:09:37.458 --> 00:09:41.481
what we see is that payers are inclined to pay for the right things,

282
00:09:41.941 --> 00:09:42.182
right?

283
00:09:42.842 --> 00:09:43.863
And of course there are

284
00:09:44.287 --> 00:09:45.588
budget constraints and so on,

285
00:09:45.608 --> 00:09:46.508
but you can get there.

286
00:09:48.009 --> 00:09:58.835
What we also propose on the other side is really to be as lean as possible to make sure that we are not throwing money away that would not be driving more value to patients.

287
00:09:59.615 --> 00:10:01.936
And so our model is also very much driven towards this.

288
00:10:03.337 --> 00:10:04.816
But we fundamentally believe that,

289
00:10:04.896 --> 00:10:05.197
again,

290
00:10:06.178 --> 00:10:07.277
if there are good assets,

291
00:10:07.357 --> 00:10:08.558
there is a willingness to pay.

292
00:10:10.918 --> 00:10:13.179
And when you look at a difficult conversation with payers,

293
00:10:13.539 --> 00:10:22.521
it's often because the added value to the existing standard of care is not great or that the data that have been generated to demonstrate it is not a fit.

294
00:10:22.962 --> 00:10:23.181
Right.

295
00:10:25.322 --> 00:10:27.223
And that's what we try to avoid in our process.

296
00:10:27.983 --> 00:10:28.643
To anticipate.

297
00:10:28.683 --> 00:10:28.823
Yeah.

298
00:10:29.188 --> 00:10:29.308
Yeah,

299
00:10:29.367 --> 00:10:30.107
to anticipate.

300
00:10:30.508 --> 00:10:32.308
And we like to talk to companies that are,

301
00:10:32.769 --> 00:10:35.510
to start talking to companies that are phase two so that we can,

302
00:10:36.309 --> 00:10:38.471
we don't do new co at this stage or whatever.

303
00:10:38.930 --> 00:10:39.611
It's very light,

304
00:10:40.111 --> 00:10:49.634
but we can definitely help them just by reflecting thoughtfully on the last phase of their clinical developments to make sure that they are truly ready and nothing important is missed.

305
00:10:51.754 --> 00:10:52.313
They deliver,

306
00:10:52.394 --> 00:10:56.894
they produce the right data set that makes the conversation with EMEA in one sense,

307
00:10:56.955 --> 00:10:57.936
but also with pairs,

308
00:10:58.055 --> 00:10:58.615
a better one.

309
00:10:59.295 --> 00:10:59.535
And so,

310
00:10:59.895 --> 00:11:00.015
yeah.

311
00:11:00.476 --> 00:11:00.896
So you can,

312
00:11:01.016 --> 00:11:01.176
yes,

313
00:11:01.236 --> 00:11:02.756
nearly assure them they will go somewhere.

314
00:11:03.136 --> 00:11:04.217
Yeah,

315
00:11:04.777 --> 00:11:05.857
And I put them in,

316
00:11:06.217 --> 00:11:06.438
I mean,

317
00:11:06.497 --> 00:11:07.678
there are some misconceptions.

318
00:11:07.698 --> 00:11:07.899
I mean,

319
00:11:07.958 --> 00:11:11.939
the dynamics of pricing in the United States and Europe is so different.

320
00:11:12.939 --> 00:11:15.700
And we cannot blame the biotechs for looking first at the U.S.

321
00:11:16.420 --> 00:11:18.822
market because this is what makes their investments,

322
00:11:19.221 --> 00:11:19.481
you know,

323
00:11:19.621 --> 00:11:20.021
viable.

324
00:11:20.562 --> 00:11:21.041
Unfortunately,

325
00:11:21.062 --> 00:11:24.743
the United States is really so important now in terms of financials.

326
00:11:25.183 --> 00:11:26.183
So they have to do that.

327
00:11:28.583 --> 00:11:29.885
But Europe is important as well.

328
00:11:30.144 --> 00:11:30.365
I mean,

329
00:11:30.365 --> 00:11:32.407
it can still be a sizable amount of their business.

330
00:11:32.866 --> 00:11:33.868
There are a lot of patients.

331
00:11:34.087 --> 00:11:36.009
There are more patients than in the United States.

332
00:11:36.470 --> 00:11:38.030
So this is a go-to-market strategy.

333
00:11:38.471 --> 00:11:38.691
Yes,

334
00:11:38.731 --> 00:11:39.692
but I think it's also,

335
00:11:39.812 --> 00:11:41.232
we didn't talk about these sectors,

336
00:11:41.572 --> 00:11:44.495
but also for big pharma to understand how a launch can be done.

337
00:11:44.836 --> 00:11:44.976
Yeah.

338
00:11:46.177 --> 00:11:46.376
Maybe,

339
00:11:46.637 --> 00:11:46.897
you know,

340
00:11:47.057 --> 00:11:53.302
in a kind of like leaner way and achieve profitability with different expenses.

341
00:11:53.662 --> 00:11:53.802
Yeah,

342
00:11:53.981 --> 00:11:54.503
absolutely.

343
00:11:54.842 --> 00:11:55.063
I mean,

344
00:11:55.123 --> 00:11:56.043
I've been in large pharma.

345
00:11:56.563 --> 00:12:02.587
And we sometimes turn down assets that could have been interesting to license or acquire because they were just too small.

346
00:12:03.347 --> 00:12:04.667
Because the cost of the platform,

347
00:12:04.708 --> 00:12:07.309
the operating elements of big pharma is already there.

348
00:12:07.689 --> 00:12:12.452
And you just can't make it work for a small patient population most of the time,

349
00:12:12.492 --> 00:12:12.712
right?

350
00:12:14.113 --> 00:12:14.713
And we see that,

351
00:12:15.113 --> 00:12:15.614
for example,

352
00:12:15.674 --> 00:12:21.577
big pharma companies now tend to step away from the orphan disease area because it's so difficult to operate in.

353
00:12:21.938 --> 00:12:25.260
And they go into GLP and all the things that are fashionable at the moment.

354
00:12:26.672 --> 00:12:30.955
But there is,

355
00:12:31.034 --> 00:12:31.294
I mean,

356
00:12:31.355 --> 00:12:33.297
there's a lot of innovation in smaller spaces,

357
00:12:33.376 --> 00:12:33.577
right?

358
00:12:35.097 --> 00:12:35.558
In those,

359
00:12:35.938 --> 00:12:37.139
I was looking at a statistic,

360
00:12:37.178 --> 00:12:37.519
I think.

361
00:12:39.101 --> 00:12:41.702
There are more than 9,000 diseases with no treatments.

362
00:12:42.743 --> 00:12:43.143
And so

363
00:12:44.244 --> 00:12:47.285
10,000, I think we have 10,000 orphan diseases.

364
00:12:48.087 --> 00:12:48.407
And yeah,

365
00:12:48.486 --> 00:12:49.567
most of them have no treatment.

366
00:12:50.308 --> 00:12:52.029
And the large majority impacts kids as well,

367
00:12:52.230 --> 00:12:52.429
right?

368
00:12:52.710 --> 00:12:55.512
So they talk about a tsunami of innovation.

369
00:12:55.907 --> 00:12:56.147
And so,

370
00:12:56.327 --> 00:12:56.567
yes,

371
00:12:56.968 --> 00:12:57.328
it's really,

372
00:12:57.608 --> 00:12:57.728
yeah.

373
00:12:57.828 --> 00:12:59.009
And so how do you get there?

374
00:12:59.329 --> 00:13:02.351
I think the biopharma platforms are fantastic for deploying,

375
00:13:05.013 --> 00:13:05.273
you know,

376
00:13:05.313 --> 00:13:05.973
large-scale,

377
00:13:06.373 --> 00:13:07.394
large-scale innovation.

378
00:13:08.315 --> 00:13:08.555
I mean,

379
00:13:08.615 --> 00:13:11.757
the COVID vaccines or immunologics and things like this.

380
00:13:12.297 --> 00:13:13.218
But for smaller things,

381
00:13:13.219 --> 00:13:14.558
you probably need something different.

382
00:13:15.339 --> 00:13:16.780
And this is what we're trying to crack here.

383
00:13:18.040 --> 00:13:18.261
Okay.

384
00:13:18.681 --> 00:13:20.222
For very specific precision medicine,

385
00:13:20.282 --> 00:13:22.123
you probably need another way to look at things.

386
00:13:23.179 --> 00:13:24.360
One that is more flexible,

387
00:13:24.399 --> 00:13:28.481
that is more purpose-built and,

388
00:13:28.922 --> 00:13:29.082
yeah,

389
00:13:29.582 --> 00:13:33.702
leaves options open to make sure you can adapt to the market conditions.

390
00:13:34.122 --> 00:13:34.343
Yes,

391
00:13:34.423 --> 00:13:34.723
indeed.

392
00:13:34.803 --> 00:13:35.624
It's very complex,

393
00:13:35.744 --> 00:13:37.223
but that's what makes this interesting.

394
00:13:38.164 --> 00:13:41.905
And can you maybe in one sentence explain your mission so we can really understand what…

395
00:13:42.305 --> 00:13:42.466
Well,

396
00:13:43.186 --> 00:13:45.427
bringing innovations to patients and really doing…

397
00:13:46.626 --> 00:13:47.707
Targeted innovation,

398
00:13:47.768 --> 00:13:48.048
yeah.

399
00:13:48.148 --> 00:13:48.408
And so…

400
00:13:49.147 --> 00:13:52.728
It's really helping biopharma go that last mile to their patients.

401
00:13:53.208 --> 00:13:53.828
They've done a,

402
00:13:54.669 --> 00:13:56.269
many of them have done incredible work,

403
00:13:56.329 --> 00:13:56.529
just,

404
00:13:56.809 --> 00:13:57.049
you know,

405
00:13:57.149 --> 00:13:59.510
deploying from phase one to phase three,

406
00:13:59.611 --> 00:14:01.490
or even preclinical to phase three.

407
00:14:02.651 --> 00:14:05.332
And so the last piece is very important,

408
00:14:05.371 --> 00:14:08.952
and it's often a bit neglected because it's not seen by the R&D organization,

409
00:14:09.453 --> 00:14:10.753
or it's not seen as a challenge,

410
00:14:10.894 --> 00:14:11.113
right?

411
00:14:13.274 --> 00:14:13.394
I,

412
00:14:13.954 --> 00:14:14.094
well,

413
00:14:14.274 --> 00:14:15.074
you've probably heard this,

414
00:14:15.135 --> 00:14:16.675
but you hear a lot of CEOs saying,

415
00:14:16.736 --> 00:14:16.976
you know,

416
00:14:16.976 --> 00:14:18.015
my product is so good.

417
00:14:19.267 --> 00:14:20.327
I don't need a commercial team.

418
00:14:20.727 --> 00:14:20.928
Yes,

419
00:14:21.968 --> 00:14:22.308
science.

420
00:14:23.508 --> 00:14:25.569
It's going to be sold like hotcakes,

421
00:14:25.609 --> 00:14:25.809
right?

422
00:14:26.749 --> 00:14:27.549
Which never happens,

423
00:14:27.550 --> 00:14:27.969
of course,

424
00:14:28.010 --> 00:14:29.611
because it's a bit more complex than that.

425
00:14:30.290 --> 00:14:30.550
But OK,

426
00:14:30.650 --> 00:14:32.191
you can't blame them for being there,

427
00:14:32.391 --> 00:14:32.651
right?

428
00:14:33.731 --> 00:14:39.633
What we try to do is help them just evolve to the next step and really make sure they don't miss what we call the last mile.

429
00:14:40.034 --> 00:14:41.173
So the little piece of work,

430
00:14:41.534 --> 00:14:41.753
I mean,

431
00:14:41.793 --> 00:14:42.513
it's not so little,

432
00:14:42.573 --> 00:14:42.874
actually,

433
00:14:42.914 --> 00:14:47.755
but the little piece of work that needs to be done from the end of your data set or the generation of data.

434
00:14:48.135 --> 00:14:51.362
to the real patients having real access and being treated in real conditions.

435
00:14:51.969 --> 00:14:52.149
Yes.

436
00:14:52.189 --> 00:14:53.550
And then it means you do maybe,

437
00:14:54.171 --> 00:14:55.792
I don't know if it's a few years,

438
00:14:55.832 --> 00:14:56.552
five years with you,

439
00:14:56.632 --> 00:15:01.256
partnerships means they would have two years of commercialization with you and you do the good.

440
00:15:01.556 --> 00:15:01.916
As well.

441
00:15:02.396 --> 00:15:02.657
We go,

442
00:15:02.757 --> 00:15:03.017
I mean,

443
00:15:03.097 --> 00:15:04.298
typically we go four to six,

444
00:15:04.438 --> 00:15:04.578
yeah.

445
00:15:04.698 --> 00:15:05.499
An average of five,

446
00:15:05.519 --> 00:15:05.879
you're right.

447
00:15:08.521 --> 00:15:15.946
And that leaves us time to of course go through this regulatory process and payer and also deploy across the continent.

448
00:15:16.346 --> 00:15:16.987
Because I mean,

449
00:15:17.327 --> 00:15:20.229
the other thing about Europe is that it's so fragmented that

450
00:15:20.409 --> 00:15:21.970
you cannot just do one launch.

451
00:15:22.390 --> 00:15:25.853
And this is another concept that is quite difficult from a United States standpoint.

452
00:15:26.293 --> 00:15:27.314
It's not one launch.

453
00:15:27.574 --> 00:15:31.097
It's just like 27 or more launches that are happening over two or three years.

454
00:15:31.957 --> 00:15:32.297
And so,

455
00:15:33.078 --> 00:15:33.198
yeah,

456
00:15:33.238 --> 00:15:34.959
we have time to do that once we are there.

457
00:15:36.360 --> 00:15:37.521
It's time for us to exit.

458
00:15:38.101 --> 00:15:38.262
Yes,

459
00:15:38.322 --> 00:15:41.004
this is exactly what they are planning to do at this point in time.

460
00:15:41.984 --> 00:15:42.184
Okay.

461
00:15:43.725 --> 00:15:43.946
Yes.

462
00:15:44.066 --> 00:15:48.689
And how is it generally perceived or understood from the financials in the United States as well?

463
00:15:48.993 --> 00:15:49.173
Yeah,

464
00:15:49.213 --> 00:15:49.453
I mean,

465
00:15:49.454 --> 00:15:50.434
it was very interesting.

466
00:15:52.035 --> 00:15:57.820
I think the fact that the United States market is now a little bit more uncertain,

467
00:15:57.880 --> 00:15:58.080
right?

468
00:15:58.520 --> 00:15:58.880
Totally.

469
00:15:59.701 --> 00:16:00.021
Of course,

470
00:16:00.041 --> 00:16:01.602
it's still the top priority overall.

471
00:16:04.765 --> 00:16:08.167
We see more and more investment vehicles or funds,

472
00:16:08.628 --> 00:16:09.168
things like this,

473
00:16:09.588 --> 00:16:10.929
interested in looking outside,

474
00:16:11.450 --> 00:16:15.733
probably just to diversify and make sure they're not just relying on the United States.

475
00:16:17.581 --> 00:16:21.323
We had this experience of talking to funds where the partners were telling us,

476
00:16:21.683 --> 00:16:21.923
you know,

477
00:16:21.963 --> 00:16:24.264
it's the first time I see how business works in Europe.

478
00:16:24.384 --> 00:16:24.604
Right.

479
00:16:25.084 --> 00:16:27.405
So we never really bet on this.

480
00:16:27.765 --> 00:16:33.488
So it means that the investment they've done in some of the biotechs were just against the United States potential.

481
00:16:34.528 --> 00:16:36.329
So it's initially they were not interested,

482
00:16:36.349 --> 00:16:37.689
but they're starting to be interested.

483
00:16:38.030 --> 00:16:38.150
OK,

484
00:16:38.350 --> 00:16:39.790
starting to just open their eyes.

485
00:16:40.591 --> 00:16:42.111
And because also they realize I mean,

486
00:16:42.171 --> 00:16:45.993
they realize that some funds have dozens of those biotechs that are now reaching.

487
00:16:46.429 --> 00:16:46.689
you know,

488
00:16:46.929 --> 00:16:47.489
phase three.

489
00:16:49.190 --> 00:16:49.810
And the question is,

490
00:16:49.870 --> 00:16:50.371
what do we do?

491
00:16:51.291 --> 00:16:53.432
And so they can't necessarily find a license.

492
00:16:53.452 --> 00:16:54.812
They don't want to do a license.

493
00:16:54.832 --> 00:16:56.633
They want to go on their own and so on.

494
00:16:57.454 --> 00:17:02.296
And so there is this question that is coming and they see that there are more and more of these companies.

495
00:17:03.036 --> 00:17:06.417
And this is a step that is important because it's a step of monetization,

496
00:17:06.517 --> 00:17:06.737
right?

497
00:17:07.118 --> 00:17:09.959
So it's a step where the investments start to return,

498
00:17:10.039 --> 00:17:10.259
right?

499
00:17:11.359 --> 00:17:13.200
And so they are very interested in our model.

500
00:17:13.620 --> 00:17:15.181
We've got a lot of traction on this.

501
00:17:15.877 --> 00:17:19.939
which is nice because it helps us just really plan for some fundings and so on.

502
00:17:22.421 --> 00:17:25.783
The difficulty that we often have is always to showcase a brand new model,

503
00:17:26.083 --> 00:17:26.303
right?

504
00:17:26.583 --> 00:17:26.843
And so,

505
00:17:27.323 --> 00:17:28.144
as you can imagine,

506
00:17:28.684 --> 00:17:34.988
it actually took us a little bit of time to really get everything ready and to get people acquainted with that so they see the benefits and so on.

507
00:17:35.328 --> 00:17:35.488
Yes,

508
00:17:35.508 --> 00:17:36.248
to trust it also,

509
00:17:36.388 --> 00:17:36.508
yeah.

510
00:17:36.769 --> 00:17:38.089
But we've got a truly fantastic,

511
00:17:38.149 --> 00:17:40.431
absolutely fantastic connection now,

512
00:17:40.511 --> 00:17:40.751
you know,

513
00:17:40.811 --> 00:17:41.972
with this whole investment world.

514
00:17:42.012 --> 00:17:44.333
They really see the value in what we're doing.

515
00:17:44.733 --> 00:17:46.954
And they also recognize the need for that kind of thing.

516
00:17:47.674 --> 00:17:48.574
It's a big step forward,

517
00:17:48.614 --> 00:17:48.974
honestly.

518
00:17:49.294 --> 00:17:51.655
And it's something we've been working toward for a long time.

519
00:17:52.315 --> 00:17:52.955
When you look at,

520
00:17:54.176 --> 00:17:54.616
as we said,

521
00:17:54.656 --> 00:17:56.276
something like 2,000 assets,

522
00:17:56.336 --> 00:18:00.458
when you look at the number of operators able to bring innovation in Europe as a whole,

523
00:18:00.938 --> 00:18:02.958
not just counting some very sub-regional ones,

524
00:18:02.998 --> 00:18:03.759
there are less than

525
00:18:04.219 --> 00:18:06.079
100, probably 80.

526
00:18:06.960 --> 00:18:08.400
So you've got 2,000 assets,

527
00:18:08.520 --> 00:18:09.060
80 players.

528
00:18:09.120 --> 00:18:09.960
There is something wrong,

529
00:18:10.080 --> 00:18:10.320
right?

530
00:18:10.781 --> 00:18:11.881
You need to have more options.

531
00:18:12.293 --> 00:18:15.134
And I think most of the funds understood that and the investors understood that.

532
00:18:15.174 --> 00:18:15.294
So,

533
00:18:15.374 --> 00:18:15.514
yeah.

534
00:18:17.415 --> 00:18:17.635
Yes.

535
00:18:17.715 --> 00:18:20.757
And it's also a way to present Europe as an open market with solutions.

536
00:18:21.037 --> 00:18:21.177
Yeah,

537
00:18:21.417 --> 00:18:21.777
exactly.

538
00:18:22.097 --> 00:18:22.717
And it's exactly.

539
00:18:23.038 --> 00:18:23.638
Instead of like.

540
00:18:23.938 --> 00:18:24.358
Problems.

541
00:18:24.678 --> 00:18:24.938
Instead,

542
00:18:24.978 --> 00:18:25.158
yes.

543
00:18:26.559 --> 00:18:26.719
Yeah.

544
00:18:26.839 --> 00:18:27.099
I mean,

545
00:18:27.199 --> 00:18:27.539
honestly,

546
00:18:27.580 --> 00:18:30.041
the reputation of Europe as a pharmaceutical market,

547
00:18:30.541 --> 00:18:30.781
you know,

548
00:18:31.581 --> 00:18:32.582
is really not that great,

549
00:18:32.702 --> 00:18:33.582
to be perfectly honest.

550
00:18:33.982 --> 00:18:34.582
And sometimes,

551
00:18:34.622 --> 00:18:34.983
honestly,

552
00:18:35.023 --> 00:18:35.903
for the wrong reason,

553
00:18:37.304 --> 00:18:39.685
because there are things that are done in the right way as well.

554
00:18:40.801 --> 00:18:40.921
Yeah,

555
00:18:41.001 --> 00:18:42.582
it's just a different market.

556
00:18:42.583 --> 00:18:43.742
And this is what we try to explain.

557
00:18:43.762 --> 00:18:46.243
It's not worse or better.

558
00:18:46.263 --> 00:18:46.803
It's different.

559
00:18:47.084 --> 00:18:48.104
I think it's more complex.

560
00:18:48.524 --> 00:18:48.664
Yeah.

561
00:18:49.044 --> 00:18:52.466
Then you probably just need a little more time to really come to terms with it.

562
00:18:52.766 --> 00:18:54.106
I would almost disagree with that.

563
00:18:54.447 --> 00:18:55.527
I think I would agree in a way,

564
00:18:55.547 --> 00:18:56.627
but I would almost disagree.

565
00:18:56.948 --> 00:18:58.408
I think the entry is more complex.

566
00:19:00.029 --> 00:19:01.289
And so getting in there,

567
00:19:01.809 --> 00:19:02.590
the market entry,

568
00:19:02.690 --> 00:19:03.510
getting into the country,

569
00:19:03.590 --> 00:19:04.651
into Europe is complex.

570
00:19:05.411 --> 00:19:07.052
And it's much more complex than the US,

571
00:19:07.452 --> 00:19:08.772
where you've got a very free market.

572
00:19:09.172 --> 00:19:10.233
So the access is very good.

573
00:19:10.513 --> 00:19:10.913
But you have,

574
00:19:10.973 --> 00:19:11.193
yes,

575
00:19:11.554 --> 00:19:12.314
one payer after that,

576
00:19:12.354 --> 00:19:12.494
yeah.

577
00:19:12.694 --> 00:19:14.075
But then once you convince the payer,

578
00:19:14.155 --> 00:19:17.618
you've also got what is called universal coverage in most countries.

579
00:19:17.978 --> 00:19:19.399
So you don't have any questions asked.

580
00:19:19.839 --> 00:19:20.780
If there is a prescription,

581
00:19:20.940 --> 00:19:21.761
there is a fulfillment.

582
00:19:22.081 --> 00:19:22.301
Yes.

583
00:19:23.362 --> 00:19:23.882
In the US,

584
00:19:23.883 --> 00:19:24.302
of course,

585
00:19:24.322 --> 00:19:27.825
you can launch and pretend you launch very easily because it's a free market.

586
00:19:28.205 --> 00:19:29.086
You set your price,

587
00:19:29.087 --> 00:19:29.346
you go,

588
00:19:29.826 --> 00:19:30.066
right?

589
00:19:30.466 --> 00:19:30.927
And it's there.

590
00:19:31.547 --> 00:19:34.069
But you've got so many things to do along the way.

591
00:19:34.169 --> 00:19:37.111
Sometimes almost just to convince patient by patient,

592
00:19:37.311 --> 00:19:37.531
right?

593
00:19:38.252 --> 00:19:38.912
Payer by payer,

594
00:19:39.112 --> 00:19:39.332
right?

595
00:19:39.733 --> 00:19:39.853
So.

596
00:19:40.373 --> 00:19:43.759
There is a lot of complexity that is coming progressively in the US.

597
00:19:44.280 --> 00:19:44.460
Okay,

598
00:19:44.500 --> 00:19:44.981
it's different.

599
00:19:45.782 --> 00:19:45.903
Yeah,

600
00:19:45.983 --> 00:19:46.664
and it's what I said.

601
00:19:46.684 --> 00:19:46.884
I mean,

602
00:19:46.924 --> 00:19:47.806
it's different muscles.

603
00:19:48.227 --> 00:19:49.248
And this is where I think...

604
00:19:50.366 --> 00:19:51.267
We believe the issue is,

605
00:19:51.327 --> 00:19:51.507
right?

606
00:19:51.547 --> 00:19:52.548
Capabilities are different.

607
00:19:52.608 --> 00:19:52.728
Yeah.

608
00:19:54.049 --> 00:19:54.269
Okay.

609
00:19:54.329 --> 00:19:54.869
So again,

610
00:19:55.450 --> 00:19:55.670
yes,

611
00:19:55.870 --> 00:19:57.011
Europe is generally seen,

612
00:19:57.251 --> 00:19:57.511
you know,

613
00:19:57.691 --> 00:19:59.593
as a much more regulated part of the world,

614
00:19:59.673 --> 00:20:00.013
actually.

615
00:20:01.774 --> 00:20:02.034
It is.

616
00:20:02.375 --> 00:20:02.495
Yeah.

617
00:20:02.795 --> 00:20:03.235
Fragmented.

618
00:20:03.576 --> 00:20:03.796
Yes.

619
00:20:03.896 --> 00:20:05.917
Fragmented and maybe the cultural aspect too,

620
00:20:06.017 --> 00:20:06.818
but in the US?

621
00:20:07.378 --> 00:20:07.498
Yeah.

622
00:20:07.779 --> 00:20:08.119
Culture.

623
00:20:08.219 --> 00:20:08.379
Yes.

624
00:20:08.719 --> 00:20:09.200
Commercial.

625
00:20:09.580 --> 00:20:09.720
Yeah.

626
00:20:10.361 --> 00:20:10.561
Okay.

627
00:20:10.621 --> 00:20:11.521
What if a launch fails?

628
00:20:12.622 --> 00:20:13.102
Who pays?

629
00:20:14.043 --> 00:20:14.403
So we do.

630
00:20:14.443 --> 00:20:15.164
We take the risks,

631
00:20:15.204 --> 00:20:15.404
right?

632
00:20:16.165 --> 00:20:16.285
Yeah.

633
00:20:16.405 --> 00:20:16.585
Well,

634
00:20:16.605 --> 00:20:17.045
financially,

635
00:20:17.046 --> 00:20:17.706
we take the risk.

636
00:20:21.294 --> 00:20:38.093
of complete failure right that exists the worst case this is the worst case i'm not saying it's never going to happen we've got a lot of control on that and we again the way to do that is really to sequence your investments and

637
00:20:38.094 --> 00:20:41.577
this is what we what we do so that if you lose you don't lose too big,

638
00:20:41.677 --> 00:20:41.878
right?

639
00:20:44.654 --> 00:20:45.555
It means you can stop,

640
00:20:45.695 --> 00:20:47.016
you can change your mind in the middle.

641
00:20:47.676 --> 00:20:48.056
We can,

642
00:20:48.496 --> 00:20:48.997
we've got some,

643
00:20:49.037 --> 00:20:49.277
I mean,

644
00:20:49.837 --> 00:20:51.718
in cooperation with our biopharma partner,

645
00:20:51.859 --> 00:20:52.179
of course,

646
00:20:52.219 --> 00:20:53.259
there are ways to step out,

647
00:20:53.320 --> 00:20:53.500
right,

648
00:20:53.520 --> 00:20:54.040
if we need to.

649
00:20:55.601 --> 00:20:59.463
But we fund this launch,

650
00:20:59.563 --> 00:20:59.744
right,

651
00:20:59.745 --> 00:21:01.345
the market entry and the deployment.

652
00:21:01.745 --> 00:21:03.066
So this is our financial risk,

653
00:21:03.166 --> 00:21:03.366
right,

654
00:21:03.526 --> 00:21:03.866
overall.

655
00:21:04.467 --> 00:21:04.727
I mean,

656
00:21:04.807 --> 00:21:05.047
again,

657
00:21:05.307 --> 00:21:07.629
we try to control that by sequencing our investments,

658
00:21:08.009 --> 00:21:08.409
by being,

659
00:21:08.649 --> 00:21:08.869
again,

660
00:21:08.949 --> 00:21:09.129
lean,

661
00:21:09.390 --> 00:21:09.650
flex.

662
00:21:12.202 --> 00:21:12.362
Yes,

663
00:21:12.402 --> 00:21:15.043
and you will learn on the way and reduce your failure rate.

664
00:21:15.283 --> 00:21:15.683
Exactly,

665
00:21:15.783 --> 00:21:16.163
exactly.

666
00:21:17.283 --> 00:21:17.784
But they are,

667
00:21:17.844 --> 00:21:18.084
I mean,

668
00:21:18.124 --> 00:21:20.684
the biotechs which went alone and succeeded,

669
00:21:21.084 --> 00:21:21.885
they are in Europe,

670
00:21:22.605 --> 00:21:22.825
right?

671
00:21:22.905 --> 00:21:24.185
There are some of them flourished,

672
00:21:24.445 --> 00:21:24.665
right?

673
00:21:26.706 --> 00:21:27.386
And they did great.

674
00:21:28.587 --> 00:21:30.867
They had all this kind of discipline of sequencing,

675
00:21:30.907 --> 00:21:32.288
of getting step by step and,

676
00:21:32.728 --> 00:21:32.968
you know,

677
00:21:33.028 --> 00:21:39.570
moving from one success to the other and learning from the failures and adjusting afterwards and so on.

678
00:21:40.010 --> 00:21:41.110
And this is really the way to go.

679
00:21:42.158 --> 00:21:42.538
And again,

680
00:21:42.819 --> 00:21:46.801
very different from a US launch where the point is really to go strong,

681
00:21:47.161 --> 00:21:48.723
full in a first step,

682
00:21:48.883 --> 00:21:49.123
right?

683
00:21:49.663 --> 00:21:50.664
So that's what we try to do.

684
00:21:52.025 --> 00:21:52.325
Yes,

685
00:21:52.505 --> 00:21:53.006
and okay.

686
00:21:53.086 --> 00:21:53.346
I mean,

687
00:21:53.386 --> 00:21:53.566
yes,

688
00:21:53.626 --> 00:21:54.386
I really try to,

689
00:21:54.547 --> 00:21:55.787
I start to imagine yourself,

690
00:21:55.907 --> 00:21:56.168
you know,

691
00:21:56.169 --> 00:21:57.569
as a group with different companies.

692
00:21:58.109 --> 00:22:01.751
And then it means you don't have,

693
00:22:01.832 --> 00:22:02.092
yes,

694
00:22:02.332 --> 00:22:04.714
limitations for competitive risk or anything.

695
00:22:05.094 --> 00:22:07.355
Because each one is in silos and each one can operate.

696
00:22:07.736 --> 00:22:08.436
Because it's like,

697
00:22:08.796 --> 00:22:10.998
I think something really special about this industry.

698
00:22:11.806 --> 00:22:13.487
is it means different companies,

699
00:22:13.567 --> 00:22:15.648
different business can be into the same house.

700
00:22:16.568 --> 00:22:16.688
Yeah,

701
00:22:16.768 --> 00:22:17.208
that's true.

702
00:22:17.829 --> 00:22:18.069
I mean,

703
00:22:18.409 --> 00:22:19.369
what Xscape Bio is,

704
00:22:19.449 --> 00:22:20.610
is primarily a platform.

705
00:22:21.210 --> 00:22:22.971
So a platform that is creating companies.

706
00:22:23.591 --> 00:22:24.171
So you're right.

707
00:22:24.672 --> 00:22:28.833
Each of the partners got their own companies and we can operate them separately and so on.

708
00:22:30.934 --> 00:22:31.214
But we,

709
00:22:31.294 --> 00:22:33.355
the platform is there to be able to scale,

710
00:22:33.756 --> 00:22:34.016
right?

711
00:22:34.356 --> 00:22:36.357
And to be able to have a lot of these companies.

712
00:22:37.097 --> 00:22:37.877
We don't think it's,

713
00:22:38.057 --> 00:22:38.318
I mean,

714
00:22:38.338 --> 00:22:39.138
we think it's probably...

715
00:22:41.766 --> 00:22:43.927
a better approach.

716
00:22:43.928 --> 00:22:44.927
In the current world where,

717
00:22:44.947 --> 00:22:45.187
you know,

718
00:22:45.227 --> 00:22:46.267
we've got precision medicine,

719
00:22:46.307 --> 00:22:47.748
you've got very targeted assets.

720
00:22:49.828 --> 00:22:52.369
The focus is important and more than the cross.

721
00:22:53.409 --> 00:22:53.569
Yes,

722
00:22:53.629 --> 00:23:01.311
I would really like to take some time to talk about your 100 interviews that you have conducted and to give a bit of an insight from someone who is actually involved,

723
00:23:01.912 --> 00:23:05.593
not just from a position paper or a report about these companies,

724
00:23:05.673 --> 00:23:06.613
what's happening with them,

725
00:23:07.313 --> 00:23:08.453
where all of this comes from,

726
00:23:08.794 --> 00:23:10.394
and what exactly are we talking about here?

727
00:23:10.966 --> 00:23:12.687
What is the real story behind all of this?

728
00:23:14.208 --> 00:23:14.448
I mean,

729
00:23:14.488 --> 00:23:20.232
maybe we can start with what we observed is their problem,

730
00:23:20.272 --> 00:23:20.693
basically,

731
00:23:20.933 --> 00:23:24.816
which was not necessarily as clear when we started,

732
00:23:24.876 --> 00:23:25.056
right?

733
00:23:26.617 --> 00:23:27.357
And because you say,

734
00:23:27.417 --> 00:23:27.657
okay,

735
00:23:27.718 --> 00:23:28.758
maybe they don't have money,

736
00:23:28.838 --> 00:23:31.920
maybe they don't have willingness or something like this to go to Europe.

737
00:23:33.141 --> 00:23:37.564
What we see are two things,

738
00:23:37.604 --> 00:23:38.205
but three things,

739
00:23:38.245 --> 00:23:39.966
but two things that are really stringent.

740
00:23:40.534 --> 00:23:42.115
First is they don't have the bandwidth.

741
00:23:42.895 --> 00:23:43.935
This is as simple as that,

742
00:23:44.355 --> 00:23:50.577
is that they are into so many other things that getting five minutes of brain time in Europe is just like a struggle,

743
00:23:50.617 --> 00:23:50.817
right?

744
00:23:51.378 --> 00:23:55.759
And so this is the primary thing I would say is that they know it's great.

745
00:23:55.779 --> 00:23:56.739
They know it's important.

746
00:23:56.779 --> 00:23:58.460
They know they should do something,

747
00:23:58.500 --> 00:24:00.120
but the organization is not fit.

748
00:24:00.681 --> 00:24:01.781
And we see that in small,

749
00:24:01.881 --> 00:24:02.761
but also in larger.

750
00:24:03.121 --> 00:24:04.162
Biotech is the same,

751
00:24:04.222 --> 00:24:04.422
right?

752
00:24:05.646 --> 00:24:11.229
Because there are so many other priorities or things that are perceived as other priorities that is there.

753
00:24:11.930 --> 00:24:12.910
So that's the first thing.

754
00:24:14.031 --> 00:24:16.572
And the second one is not necessarily a matter of money.

755
00:24:17.673 --> 00:24:19.254
It's a matter of allocation of resource.

756
00:24:20.274 --> 00:24:21.035
And because when you,

757
00:24:21.495 --> 00:24:21.755
again,

758
00:24:22.576 --> 00:24:25.397
speaking to those CEOs and the CBOs and chief commercial officer,

759
00:24:25.437 --> 00:24:30.560
it's so hard to put a dollar in Europe when you've got also an opportunity to put a dollar in the U.S.

760
00:24:30.640 --> 00:24:33.242
organization or commercial organization or in R&D.

761
00:24:33.774 --> 00:24:36.796
And even if they've got this kind of plans in mind,

762
00:24:36.956 --> 00:24:38.337
if we've got the money to do that,

763
00:24:39.558 --> 00:24:40.258
theoretically,

764
00:24:40.779 --> 00:24:42.099
it's such a difficult thing to say,

765
00:24:42.159 --> 00:24:42.360
okay,

766
00:24:42.420 --> 00:24:42.600
yes,

767
00:24:42.640 --> 00:24:45.642
we're going to put this money into that to launch in Europe.

768
00:24:47.543 --> 00:24:52.166
And probably based on the fact that they don't know how Europe works in most of the cases.

769
00:24:52.818 --> 00:24:54.960
And what about companies that are based in the East?

770
00:24:56.061 --> 00:24:56.181
So,

771
00:24:56.381 --> 00:24:56.621
I mean,

772
00:24:56.641 --> 00:24:58.963
we had a very interesting conversation,

773
00:24:58.964 --> 00:24:59.343
we say,

774
00:24:59.784 --> 00:25:02.806
and we hope that we can get a deal with an Asian company,

775
00:25:02.906 --> 00:25:03.907
Chinese in particular.

776
00:25:04.708 --> 00:25:14.776
I think there is really a big tectonic move at the moment in the biotech area where Chinese organizations are really coming to a point where they do that in a very professional way,

777
00:25:14.856 --> 00:25:15.357
very neat,

778
00:25:15.437 --> 00:25:16.117
very clean way.

779
00:25:16.998 --> 00:25:21.002
We had access to a few data rooms and we had a chance to look at some data and it's very well done,

780
00:25:21.062 --> 00:25:21.422
honestly.

781
00:25:22.738 --> 00:25:25.940
And they've got a long-term perspective that is interesting.

782
00:25:26.740 --> 00:25:30.402
And so they are also very interested in our model for this reason as well,

783
00:25:30.422 --> 00:25:33.184
because they see us as a kind of a step-to-step into Europe.

784
00:25:33.544 --> 00:25:35.445
And then they've got their own business in Europe,

785
00:25:35.565 --> 00:25:36.386
and then they're fine,

786
00:25:36.466 --> 00:25:36.686
right?

787
00:25:38.427 --> 00:25:40.028
But the conversation will be much more,

788
00:25:40.888 --> 00:25:41.789
what's going after that?

789
00:25:41.869 --> 00:25:43.450
What is happening after the partnership,

790
00:25:44.090 --> 00:25:46.291
rather than what is happening during the partnership,

791
00:25:46.932 --> 00:25:48.573
where when do we get the patients?

792
00:25:48.653 --> 00:25:49.953
When do we really get a price?

793
00:25:49.973 --> 00:25:51.034
And so on forth.

794
00:25:51.678 --> 00:25:53.819
And so we've got way more conversation on how to build,

795
00:25:53.859 --> 00:25:57.001
what's going to be the impact on the long run and so on and so forth.

796
00:25:57.321 --> 00:25:58.902
So this is a really different conversation.

797
00:26:00.063 --> 00:26:01.544
But they're going to be there for sure.

798
00:26:02.805 --> 00:26:05.726
And they're going to be there for a right reason because they're going to bring,

799
00:26:05.907 --> 00:26:06.167
I mean,

800
00:26:06.347 --> 00:26:07.988
innovation and really nice assets.

801
00:26:08.468 --> 00:26:13.291
Then maybe the political situation is maybe actually having an impact on some biotech strategies.

802
00:26:15.132 --> 00:26:15.372
I mean,

803
00:26:15.432 --> 00:26:15.672
yes.

804
00:26:16.873 --> 00:26:17.013
Yes,

805
00:26:17.033 --> 00:26:17.754
of course.

806
00:26:17.755 --> 00:26:17.914
I mean.

807
00:26:20.394 --> 00:26:22.735
There has been a lot of things happening,

808
00:26:22.875 --> 00:26:30.940
particularly since the beginning of the year with the new US administration that are touching us indirectly.

809
00:26:31.540 --> 00:26:34.902
And I think tariffs is not touching us directly because for us,

810
00:26:35.042 --> 00:26:36.583
it's bringing things into Europe.

811
00:26:36.603 --> 00:26:38.384
So it's not selling something to US,

812
00:26:40.925 --> 00:26:42.226
but it's creating uncertainty.

813
00:26:43.467 --> 00:26:45.268
All the things that are going on with the FDA,

814
00:26:45.688 --> 00:26:49.650
all the shakeups in the FDA administration and so on is creating uncertainty.

815
00:26:50.382 --> 00:26:53.123
The conversation on what is called most favored nation,

816
00:26:53.643 --> 00:26:56.164
which tried to align the prices with Europe and the U.S.

817
00:26:56.624 --> 00:26:59.145
or try to get the European paying more for innovation.

818
00:27:00.745 --> 00:27:01.766
This is also creating,

819
00:27:02.186 --> 00:27:02.446
you know,

820
00:27:02.826 --> 00:27:03.846
questions and so on.

821
00:27:03.866 --> 00:27:07.867
And it's delaying for us.

822
00:27:07.947 --> 00:27:09.868
It's delaying the decision in general.

823
00:27:11.589 --> 00:27:12.689
But it's not necessarily,

824
00:27:13.749 --> 00:27:14.009
you know,

825
00:27:14.429 --> 00:27:15.490
cutting out the discussions,

826
00:27:15.550 --> 00:27:15.710
too,

827
00:27:15.950 --> 00:27:16.310
and just.

828
00:27:16.530 --> 00:27:16.790
you know,

829
00:27:16.850 --> 00:27:18.511
cutting out everything out of Europe and say,

830
00:27:18.551 --> 00:27:18.791
I mean,

831
00:27:18.851 --> 00:27:20.292
we've got some companies telling us,

832
00:27:20.732 --> 00:27:20.952
okay,

833
00:27:20.972 --> 00:27:23.513
we probably don't go to Europe because it's too complicated now.

834
00:27:24.553 --> 00:27:26.134
But it's not too much of that.

835
00:27:26.994 --> 00:27:28.135
And then for the Chinese,

836
00:27:28.535 --> 00:27:31.956
it's also very interesting because they are the Chinese or Japanese,

837
00:27:31.996 --> 00:27:33.237
but the Chinese in particular,

838
00:27:33.897 --> 00:27:36.198
they want also to not just invest into the US,

839
00:27:36.538 --> 00:27:39.339
but also they understand that they also need to invest into Europe,

840
00:27:39.420 --> 00:27:39.620
right?

841
00:27:40.160 --> 00:27:40.400
Yes.

842
00:27:40.860 --> 00:27:44.562
And so we've got this growing and significant increased interest,

843
00:27:44.582 --> 00:27:44.862
I think,

844
00:27:44.902 --> 00:27:45.102
from

845
00:27:45.442 --> 00:27:46.203
Chinese companies,

846
00:27:46.283 --> 00:27:46.523
really.

847
00:27:47.063 --> 00:27:47.243
Yes.

848
00:27:47.924 --> 00:27:48.844
To step in on biotech,

849
00:27:48.845 --> 00:27:49.525
to step in Europe.

850
00:27:49.625 --> 00:27:49.745
Yeah.

851
00:27:50.225 --> 00:27:50.425
Okay.

852
00:27:51.226 --> 00:27:52.347
And there is this,

853
00:27:52.647 --> 00:27:52.867
I mean,

854
00:27:52.907 --> 00:27:53.748
in Switzerland here,

855
00:27:53.808 --> 00:27:54.528
there is this

856
00:27:55.109 --> 00:27:55.949
Beijing model,

857
00:27:56.530 --> 00:27:57.650
the B1 now model.

858
00:27:58.591 --> 00:28:01.653
That is also a good blueprint for many Chinese based companies.

859
00:28:02.894 --> 00:28:05.536
And why did you decide to found the company here,

860
00:28:05.756 --> 00:28:07.357
to ground the company in Europe here?

861
00:28:08.198 --> 00:28:08.338
Well,

862
00:28:09.559 --> 00:28:09.699
yeah,

863
00:28:09.799 --> 00:28:10.519
it's a good question.

864
00:28:10.900 --> 00:28:11.140
I mean,

865
00:28:11.180 --> 00:28:12.100
is there a reason or no?

866
00:28:12.621 --> 00:28:12.761
Yeah,

867
00:28:13.021 --> 00:28:13.141
yeah,

868
00:28:13.241 --> 00:28:13.501
there is.

869
00:28:13.521 --> 00:28:13.741
I mean,

870
00:28:13.862 --> 00:28:14.262
there is.

871
00:28:15.286 --> 00:28:17.227
Besides the fact that some of our founders are Swiss,

872
00:28:17.868 --> 00:28:19.149
but they're going to be there for sure.

873
00:28:19.509 --> 00:28:22.071
They're going to be there for the right reason because they're going to bring,

874
00:28:22.771 --> 00:28:22.991
I mean,

875
00:28:23.091 --> 00:28:24.993
innovation and really nice assets.

876
00:28:25.393 --> 00:28:26.914
Then maybe at this point in time,

877
00:28:27.735 --> 00:28:31.237
the political situation is potentially changing some of the biotech strategies?

878
00:28:33.118 --> 00:28:33.419
I mean,

879
00:28:33.899 --> 00:28:34.099
yes,

880
00:28:34.159 --> 00:28:34.599
of course.

881
00:28:34.699 --> 00:28:34.840
Well,

882
00:28:34.940 --> 00:28:35.380
the thing is,

883
00:28:35.381 --> 00:28:35.600
I mean,

884
00:28:35.700 --> 00:28:36.941
there have definitely been a lot of,

885
00:28:37.121 --> 00:28:37.381
you know,

886
00:28:37.982 --> 00:28:38.882
different things happening,

887
00:28:39.243 --> 00:28:39.703
especially,

888
00:28:39.723 --> 00:28:39.963
you know,

889
00:28:40.323 --> 00:28:43.846
ever since the very start of the year with the new US administration coming in.

890
00:28:44.918 --> 00:28:45.198
You know,

891
00:28:45.858 --> 00:28:47.359
it's just been a lot to keep up with,

892
00:28:47.379 --> 00:28:47.779
honestly,

893
00:28:48.119 --> 00:28:49.459
that are affecting us indirectly.

894
00:28:49.839 --> 00:28:52.840
And I think tariffs are now affecting us directly because for us,

895
00:28:53.020 --> 00:28:54.921
it's about bringing things into Europe,

896
00:28:55.001 --> 00:28:56.141
not selling to the U.S.

897
00:28:57.282 --> 00:28:58.642
But it's creating uncertainty.

898
00:28:59.862 --> 00:29:01.543
All the things going on with the FDA,

899
00:29:02.043 --> 00:29:06.384
all the shakeups in the FDA administration and so on are creating uncertainty.

900
00:29:07.744 --> 00:29:11.165
The conversation on what is called most favored nation,

901
00:29:11.405 --> 00:29:12.946
which tries to align the prices.

902
00:29:13.558 --> 00:29:17.240
between Europe and the US or tries to get Europeans to pay more for innovation.

903
00:29:18.941 --> 00:29:19.902
This is also raising,

904
00:29:20.182 --> 00:29:20.422
you know,

905
00:29:20.502 --> 00:29:21.422
questions and so on.

906
00:29:21.943 --> 00:29:22.263
And it's,

907
00:29:23.304 --> 00:29:23.464
well,

908
00:29:23.604 --> 00:29:23.864
you know,

909
00:29:24.444 --> 00:29:25.545
it's really delaying for us.

910
00:29:25.585 --> 00:29:29.927
It's definitely delaying the decision in general,

911
00:29:30.207 --> 00:29:31.288
but it's not necessarily,

912
00:29:31.608 --> 00:29:31.848
you know,

913
00:29:31.908 --> 00:29:34.350
cutting off the discussions and just,

914
00:29:34.470 --> 00:29:34.730
you know,

915
00:29:36.511 --> 00:29:38.232
cutting everything out of Europe and saying,

916
00:29:38.272 --> 00:29:38.532
I mean,

917
00:29:38.952 --> 00:29:40.373
we've got some companies telling us,

918
00:29:40.433 --> 00:29:40.653
okay,

919
00:29:40.713 --> 00:29:41.734
we probably...

920
00:29:41.934 --> 00:29:44.401
won't go to Europe because it's too complicated now.

921
00:29:44.461 --> 00:29:44.621
It's,

922
00:29:44.942 --> 00:29:45.102
it's,

923
00:29:46.185 --> 00:29:46.466
but it's,

924
00:29:46.647 --> 00:29:47.609
it's not too much of that.

925
00:29:48.274 --> 00:29:49.334
And then for the Chinese,

926
00:29:49.374 --> 00:29:50.995
it's also very interesting because they,

927
00:29:51.275 --> 00:29:52.575
or the Chinese or Japanese,

928
00:29:52.595 --> 00:29:53.756
but the Chinese in particular,

929
00:29:54.136 --> 00:29:56.236
they also want to not just invest in the US,

930
00:29:56.296 --> 00:29:59.457
but also they understand that they also need to invest in Europe,

931
00:29:59.537 --> 00:29:59.777
right?

932
00:30:00.097 --> 00:30:00.298
Yes.

933
00:30:00.998 --> 00:30:01.918
And so we've got this,

934
00:30:02.318 --> 00:30:02.518
you know,

935
00:30:02.519 --> 00:30:03.398
this growing interest,

936
00:30:03.418 --> 00:30:03.678
I think,

937
00:30:03.739 --> 00:30:05.079
from Chinese companies,

938
00:30:05.119 --> 00:30:07.099
especially considering the recent trend.

939
00:30:07.480 --> 00:30:07.720
Yes.

940
00:30:08.080 --> 00:30:09.100
To step into biotech,

941
00:30:09.101 --> 00:30:10.000
to step into Europe.

942
00:30:10.040 --> 00:30:10.200
Yeah.

943
00:30:10.560 --> 00:30:10.741
Okay,

944
00:30:10.821 --> 00:30:11.681
sure.

945
00:30:11.682 --> 00:30:12.221
And there is this,

946
00:30:12.281 --> 00:30:12.521
I mean,

947
00:30:12.561 --> 00:30:13.381
in Switzerland here,

948
00:30:13.441 --> 00:30:13.981
there is this

949
00:30:14.902 --> 00:30:15.482
Beijing…

950
00:30:16.186 --> 00:30:16.466
model,

951
00:30:16.486 --> 00:30:17.547
the B1Now model,

952
00:30:17.627 --> 00:30:21.370
that is also a good blueprint for many Chinese-based companies.

953
00:30:22.591 --> 00:30:26.355
And why did you decide to found the company here to establish the company in Europe here?

954
00:30:27.115 --> 00:30:27.275
Well,

955
00:30:27.796 --> 00:30:27.936
yeah,

956
00:30:28.376 --> 00:30:29.077
it's a good question.

957
00:30:29.177 --> 00:30:29.437
I mean...

958
00:30:29.797 --> 00:30:30.798
Is there a reason or not?

959
00:30:31.659 --> 00:30:31.799
Yeah,

960
00:30:32.099 --> 00:30:32.219
yeah,

961
00:30:32.340 --> 00:30:32.660
there is.

962
00:30:32.700 --> 00:30:32.940
I mean,

963
00:30:33.000 --> 00:30:33.280
there is,

964
00:30:33.641 --> 00:30:33.821
well,

965
00:30:34.401 --> 00:30:36.723
besides the fact that some of our founders are Swiss,

966
00:30:37.003 --> 00:30:38.845
and I used to live in Switzerland for a long time,

967
00:30:39.245 --> 00:30:44.590
but we believe that Switzerland is really a very good combination of business features.

968
00:30:44.990 --> 00:30:46.251
I think it's very stable.

969
00:30:46.291 --> 00:30:46.551
I mean,

970
00:30:46.591 --> 00:30:47.471
it's business friendly.

971
00:30:47.511 --> 00:30:47.731
I mean,

972
00:30:47.771 --> 00:30:49.472
these are all the things that are known,

973
00:30:49.612 --> 00:30:49.832
right?

974
00:30:50.772 --> 00:30:53.414
But what is very important is I think if you think,

975
00:30:53.454 --> 00:30:54.374
if you look at Europe,

976
00:30:54.414 --> 00:30:56.475
this is the largest hub of talent,

977
00:30:56.655 --> 00:30:57.115
period.

978
00:30:57.735 --> 00:30:59.596
There is no other competing area from,

979
00:31:00.516 --> 00:31:02.317
at least from a commercial talent or,

980
00:31:02.817 --> 00:31:03.078
you know,

981
00:31:03.138 --> 00:31:03.998
late stage talent,

982
00:31:04.038 --> 00:31:04.478
I would say.

983
00:31:05.659 --> 00:31:08.120
And so our model is about creating businesses.

984
00:31:08.720 --> 00:31:10.361
So it's about hiring people as well.

985
00:31:10.701 --> 00:31:13.782
It's about having those competencies to have excellence in-house.

986
00:31:14.118 --> 00:31:16.319
And so it's very important that we are in the middle of that,

987
00:31:16.399 --> 00:31:16.639
right?

988
00:31:17.460 --> 00:31:21.482
And that we can just tap into this fantastic ecosystem of Switzerland.

989
00:31:21.782 --> 00:31:21.902
So,

990
00:31:22.683 --> 00:31:22.803
yeah,

991
00:31:23.083 --> 00:31:25.084
I would say first is probably the talent pool.

992
00:31:25.284 --> 00:31:27.906
And second is probably the business friendly elements.

993
00:31:27.946 --> 00:31:28.086
And,

994
00:31:28.846 --> 00:31:29.046
okay.

995
00:31:29.407 --> 00:31:29.587
Okay.

996
00:31:29.947 --> 00:31:32.368
And just talking a little bit more about the kinds of talents you need,

997
00:31:33.329 --> 00:31:33.589
you know,

998
00:31:34.009 --> 00:31:34.970
can you explain a bit?

999
00:31:35.310 --> 00:31:35.530
Sure.

1000
00:31:35.890 --> 00:31:37.871
We've got the way we work is twofold,

1001
00:31:37.951 --> 00:31:38.231
actually.

1002
00:31:38.652 --> 00:31:39.692
We've got our own platform.

1003
00:31:39.792 --> 00:31:39.912
So

1004
00:31:40.273 --> 00:31:42.454
Xcode.bio, which is providing services.

1005
00:31:42.894 --> 00:31:46.136
And it's providing also expertise to set up the new companies,

1006
00:31:46.156 --> 00:31:47.838
to set up the new entities and so on.

1007
00:31:48.538 --> 00:31:48.978
And for that,

1008
00:31:49.018 --> 00:31:52.461
we've actually got a really extensive network of talented individuals.

1009
00:31:53.061 --> 00:32:03.308
We've got at this point probably very close to about 50 different experts in our networks covering all the various functions and areas that you could possibly imagine.

1010
00:32:04.469 --> 00:32:10.653
And we need to have a very comprehensive and thorough network here because we are dealing with companies with very specific technology.

1011
00:32:11.114 --> 00:32:11.314
Okay.

1012
00:32:11.654 --> 00:32:13.935
So when you've got a radiopharmaceutical company,

1013
00:32:13.995 --> 00:32:15.775
you cannot just get your random

1014
00:32:16.115 --> 00:32:17.796
CMC or your random regulatory.

1015
00:32:17.976 --> 00:32:19.116
You need someone who knows this,

1016
00:32:19.296 --> 00:32:19.536
right?

1017
00:32:19.876 --> 00:32:20.157
Okay.

1018
00:32:20.597 --> 00:32:21.377
And so we've got,

1019
00:32:21.537 --> 00:32:23.638
it's very important for us to have this talent pool.

1020
00:32:23.938 --> 00:32:24.578
So first thing,

1021
00:32:24.938 --> 00:32:28.019
the second element is that when we create the new company,

1022
00:32:28.899 --> 00:32:30.399
we need to populate the new company.

1023
00:32:30.840 --> 00:32:31.300
We also,

1024
00:32:31.560 --> 00:32:32.060
in general,

1025
00:32:32.200 --> 00:32:36.781
we create an entity here in Switzerland that is going to deploy across Europe.

1026
00:32:37.101 --> 00:32:38.942
But we put the headquarters here.

1027
00:32:39.322 --> 00:32:42.403
And so this is where we need to have people with the commercial excellence,

1028
00:32:42.643 --> 00:32:42.923
you know,

1029
00:32:43.364 --> 00:32:44.064
expertise,

1030
00:32:44.584 --> 00:32:44.824
again,

1031
00:32:45.064 --> 00:32:46.425
in various disease areas.

1032
00:32:46.765 --> 00:32:46.885
So,

1033
00:32:47.505 --> 00:32:47.705
okay,

1034
00:32:47.745 --> 00:32:47.926
like...

1035
00:32:49.106 --> 00:32:49.326
I mean,

1036
00:32:49.366 --> 00:32:49.946
we go from a,

1037
00:32:50.246 --> 00:32:50.607
I don't know,

1038
00:32:50.847 --> 00:32:56.369
neuroscience with something in very specific neuroscience element to rare oncology or rare disease and so on.

1039
00:32:56.769 --> 00:33:03.612
And you need different profiles and you need to have this kind of diversity around you to be able to ramp up your organization.

1040
00:33:03.932 --> 00:33:04.052
And

1041
00:33:05.072 --> 00:33:07.794
I don't see too many other countries with that level of diversity.

1042
00:33:09.314 --> 00:33:11.455
the breadth of talents that exist in Europe,

1043
00:33:11.475 --> 00:33:11.875
at least.

1044
00:33:12.235 --> 00:33:12.395
Yes,

1045
00:33:12.435 --> 00:33:15.577
to deal with Europe and to really handle everything that comes with it.

1046
00:33:15.997 --> 00:33:16.117
Yeah,

1047
00:33:16.217 --> 00:33:16.417
sure.

1048
00:33:17.297 --> 00:33:18.198
We still have a few minutes.

1049
00:33:18.538 --> 00:33:19.878
I would like to talk about the future.

1050
00:33:20.439 --> 00:33:22.359
What do you think is the biggest threat of this system,

1051
00:33:22.640 --> 00:33:23.560
this European system,

1052
00:33:24.220 --> 00:33:24.780
in your opinion?

1053
00:33:25.601 --> 00:33:26.741
That's a broad question.

1054
00:33:26.801 --> 00:33:26.981
Well,

1055
00:33:27.061 --> 00:33:27.562
let me see.

1056
00:33:27.822 --> 00:33:27.942
Well,

1057
00:33:28.542 --> 00:33:30.403
I struggle to answer to this question,

1058
00:33:30.463 --> 00:33:31.063
to be honest,

1059
00:33:31.083 --> 00:33:32.524
because we don't see that as a threat,

1060
00:33:32.624 --> 00:33:32.844
right?

1061
00:33:33.904 --> 00:33:36.265
The way we try to think about it is as a given,

1062
00:33:36.505 --> 00:33:36.745
right?

1063
00:33:37.185 --> 00:33:38.646
And this is the way it is at the moment.

1064
00:33:40.470 --> 00:33:41.711
How do we make the best of that?

1065
00:33:42.692 --> 00:33:43.352
Then how do we,

1066
00:33:43.872 --> 00:33:44.113
you know,

1067
00:33:44.193 --> 00:33:48.155
play with the system to be able to reach the patient in a viable,

1068
00:33:48.275 --> 00:33:49.656
in a financially viable way,

1069
00:33:49.776 --> 00:33:49.977
right,

1070
00:33:50.017 --> 00:33:50.757
for biotech?

1071
00:33:51.558 --> 00:33:52.218
So I would say,

1072
00:33:52.638 --> 00:33:53.159
I would say,

1073
00:33:54.299 --> 00:33:54.540
I mean,

1074
00:33:55.921 --> 00:33:56.281
of course,

1075
00:33:56.301 --> 00:34:03.446
the main difficulty is definitely going to be the budget and the prioritization of the budget of healthcare systems in Europe,

1076
00:34:03.846 --> 00:34:04.086
you know,

1077
00:34:04.166 --> 00:34:04.366
right?

1078
00:34:04.766 --> 00:34:05.127
Where do you,

1079
00:34:05.767 --> 00:34:06.147
where do you,

1080
00:34:06.588 --> 00:34:06.828
you know,

1081
00:34:06.908 --> 00:34:08.049
you've got a limited budget,

1082
00:34:08.509 --> 00:34:09.510
where do you put your efforts,

1083
00:34:09.590 --> 00:34:09.770
right?

1084
00:34:10.490 --> 00:34:15.152
Do you want to go into very specific diseases that may be a bit more expensive,

1085
00:34:15.752 --> 00:34:18.354
but very neglected or very difficult to treat things?

1086
00:34:18.934 --> 00:34:25.217
Or are you going to go into or invest your money into early stage or just primary medicine,

1087
00:34:25.277 --> 00:34:26.157
all these kind of things?

1088
00:34:26.557 --> 00:34:28.278
And we see this is not always very good.

1089
00:34:28.618 --> 00:34:31.800
We see in some countries that there is a lot of money spent on,

1090
00:34:32.300 --> 00:34:32.600
you know,

1091
00:34:32.880 --> 00:34:35.941
analgesics and first line things and reimbursed very,

1092
00:34:36.001 --> 00:34:36.482
very well,

1093
00:34:36.762 --> 00:34:36.982
right?

1094
00:34:37.902 --> 00:34:39.184
And then it's putting pressure on,

1095
00:34:39.185 --> 00:34:39.424
you know,

1096
00:34:39.525 --> 00:34:43.190
the last cancer treatments that is probably going to save the life of someone,

1097
00:34:43.210 --> 00:34:43.431
right?

1098
00:34:43.751 --> 00:34:44.192
But a few,

1099
00:34:44.312 --> 00:34:44.532
right?

1100
00:34:44.973 --> 00:34:45.173
Okay,

1101
00:34:45.193 --> 00:34:45.694
no problem.

1102
00:34:46.695 --> 00:34:47.557
And so this is probably,

1103
00:34:47.797 --> 00:34:52.765
this is this unclear prioritization that is probably a threat,

1104
00:34:53.125 --> 00:34:53.546
I believe.

1105
00:34:55.504 --> 00:34:56.765
The fit for precision medicine,

1106
00:34:56.785 --> 00:34:57.185
if you want,

1107
00:34:57.385 --> 00:34:57.805
at the end.

1108
00:34:58.245 --> 00:35:02.547
So are we going to get into a world where we take care more of this kind of very difficult things?

1109
00:35:02.987 --> 00:35:03.167
Okay.

1110
00:35:03.468 --> 00:35:03.628
Okay.

1111
00:35:03.748 --> 00:35:04.068
Unclear,

1112
00:35:04.069 --> 00:35:04.348
you say.

1113
00:35:04.508 --> 00:35:04.708
Okay.

1114
00:35:05.709 --> 00:35:06.529
So I would say that.

1115
00:35:08.210 --> 00:35:08.330
Yeah,

1116
00:35:08.370 --> 00:35:10.371
the strategy is unclear to what we want to.

1117
00:35:11.491 --> 00:35:11.711
Okay.

1118
00:35:13.072 --> 00:35:13.452
But yes,

1119
00:35:13.572 --> 00:35:17.834
what's interesting is you're in the middle of innovation and science and a product.

1120
00:35:18.494 --> 00:35:18.614
Yeah.

1121
00:35:19.054 --> 00:35:22.496
Then it's also maybe a way to invest in science and to push science.

1122
00:35:22.820 --> 00:35:23.060
For you,

1123
00:35:23.200 --> 00:35:24.361
it might be a bit challenging,

1124
00:35:24.381 --> 00:35:25.722
maybe even more so than for others,

1125
00:35:25.782 --> 00:35:28.224
because you are trying to bring in innovation from abroad.

1126
00:35:28.604 --> 00:35:33.808
And this means you are introducing new ideas and approaches that people here might not be familiar with,

1127
00:35:33.928 --> 00:35:35.309
which can make things more complicated.

1128
00:35:35.830 --> 00:35:35.970
Yeah,

1129
00:35:35.990 --> 00:35:36.210
I mean,

1130
00:35:36.230 --> 00:35:37.611
we bring solutions for patients,

1131
00:35:37.631 --> 00:35:39.172
so we bring solutions for healthcare,

1132
00:35:39.432 --> 00:35:39.653
right?

1133
00:35:41.014 --> 00:35:41.254
I mean,

1134
00:35:41.294 --> 00:35:44.116
I would hope that there is more of European innovations coming,

1135
00:35:44.176 --> 00:35:47.398
and it seems that the European institutions are getting there slowly,

1136
00:35:47.478 --> 00:35:49.480
but they probably need to muscle up.

1137
00:35:49.620 --> 00:35:50.040
of course,

1138
00:35:50.041 --> 00:35:52.721
the investments in early stage biotech and things like this,

1139
00:35:54.561 --> 00:35:56.942
where we are focused is really probably a bit more on,

1140
00:35:58.683 --> 00:35:58.863
again,

1141
00:35:58.864 --> 00:36:03.044
the delivery to the patients and how we have,

1142
00:36:03.404 --> 00:36:04.204
at the end of the day,

1143
00:36:04.644 --> 00:36:05.845
a more healthy population,

1144
00:36:06.025 --> 00:36:08.145
or at least some people are really treated better,

1145
00:36:08.445 --> 00:36:08.686
right?

1146
00:36:09.846 --> 00:36:10.246
And here,

1147
00:36:10.526 --> 00:36:10.726
yes,

1148
00:36:10.766 --> 00:36:14.187
there is already a lot to do because there are those late stage assets that are ready.

1149
00:36:15.207 --> 00:36:17.168
And there is really a tsunami that is coming.

1150
00:36:18.332 --> 00:36:21.933
So the question of prioritization is going to be very acute at some point.

1151
00:36:24.794 --> 00:36:25.234
In payers'

1152
00:36:25.254 --> 00:36:29.115
discussions and also in budget and political discussions in certain countries,

1153
00:36:29.775 --> 00:36:37.918
this issue arises because either you accept not to fund some medicine or you have to make a difficult choice and lag a little bit behind,

1154
00:36:38.118 --> 00:36:40.299
which we're already starting to see in some countries,

1155
00:36:40.359 --> 00:36:40.539
right?

1156
00:36:40.619 --> 00:36:43.280
Lagging a bit behind in terms of innovation and you leave.

1157
00:36:43.620 --> 00:36:43.820
Yes,

1158
00:36:43.900 --> 00:36:44.460
there are ways.

1159
00:36:44.788 --> 00:36:48.050
And you leave patients without solutions that exist elsewhere in the world.

1160
00:36:50.231 --> 00:36:52.093
Or you make the decision to really fund that,

1161
00:36:52.653 --> 00:36:58.296
making sure that access is preserved for assets that are well demonstrated for adding value.

1162
00:36:59.057 --> 00:37:01.118
And then you do maybe a little bit less on other things,

1163
00:37:01.218 --> 00:37:01.418
right,

1164
00:37:01.458 --> 00:37:01.879
that are,

1165
00:37:04.700 --> 00:37:06.001
it's less life threatening,

1166
00:37:06.101 --> 00:37:06.762
less serious.

1167
00:37:07.162 --> 00:37:09.423
I don't really know how to actually qualify that,

1168
00:37:09.463 --> 00:37:10.624
but there is this shift.

1169
00:37:13.340 --> 00:37:16.202
And probably flexibility is going to be very important to have.

1170
00:37:16.662 --> 00:37:20.945
And this is not always the most evident feature of systems that are not that flexible.

1171
00:37:21.466 --> 00:37:23.107
And so that's where the tension may come.

1172
00:37:23.847 --> 00:37:24.648
But we are here to,

1173
00:37:25.068 --> 00:37:25.288
I mean,

1174
00:37:25.308 --> 00:37:27.189
we see ourselves as being here to help,

1175
00:37:27.950 --> 00:37:28.750
not just to fight.

1176
00:37:30.151 --> 00:37:33.514
It's really about how we can do the best with this system and try to make an...

1177
00:37:33.814 --> 00:37:34.014
Yes,

1178
00:37:34.054 --> 00:37:35.175
but it's also quite interesting,

1179
00:37:35.235 --> 00:37:35.555
actually,

1180
00:37:35.595 --> 00:37:37.216
because right in front of you,

1181
00:37:37.616 --> 00:37:40.078
what you see is the big pharmaceutical company model,

1182
00:37:40.138 --> 00:37:40.318
which,

1183
00:37:40.418 --> 00:37:40.839
as you know,

1184
00:37:40.919 --> 00:37:42.760
is also not particularly flexible.

1185
00:37:43.128 --> 00:37:43.248
Yeah,

1186
00:37:43.408 --> 00:37:43.548
yeah.

1187
00:37:43.588 --> 00:37:43.868
I mean,

1188
00:37:44.009 --> 00:37:45.890
they've got their merits and they've got such a...

1189
00:37:46.510 --> 00:37:48.491
I don't want to blame them because it's not about that.

1190
00:37:48.771 --> 00:37:48.891
No,

1191
00:37:48.892 --> 00:37:49.011
no,

1192
00:37:49.031 --> 00:37:49.632
it's not the point.

1193
00:37:49.932 --> 00:37:55.655
But they really do have significant advantages when it comes to bringing about this kind of large-scale innovation.

1194
00:37:56.075 --> 00:37:57.296
And they do that in a great way.

1195
00:37:57.676 --> 00:37:59.237
And it was a moment to make this happen.

1196
00:37:59.617 --> 00:38:01.518
But there are actually other things to do,

1197
00:38:01.718 --> 00:38:01.959
right?

1198
00:38:02.799 --> 00:38:05.481
And there are really all these smaller disease areas where...

1199
00:38:05.921 --> 00:38:06.141
Yes.

1200
00:38:06.301 --> 00:38:06.921
And the point is,

1201
00:38:07.001 --> 00:38:08.142
in the face of problems,

1202
00:38:08.542 --> 00:38:09.383
what do you propose?

1203
00:38:09.443 --> 00:38:10.283
How can you adapt?

1204
00:38:11.104 --> 00:38:11.404
And so...

1205
00:38:12.272 --> 00:38:14.974
We see so many drugs that are getting really close to the market.

1206
00:38:15.455 --> 00:38:16.095
And at the moment,

1207
00:38:16.195 --> 00:38:17.877
there is no plan to go to Europe.

1208
00:38:18.357 --> 00:38:19.098
And that's a shame.

1209
00:38:20.499 --> 00:38:20.739
I mean,

1210
00:38:20.979 --> 00:38:22.120
among the advanced markets,

1211
00:38:22.180 --> 00:38:23.541
this is the biggest patient market,

1212
00:38:23.802 --> 00:38:24.502
if I may say so,

1213
00:38:24.922 --> 00:38:25.743
or the patient pool,

1214
00:38:25.903 --> 00:38:26.123
right?

1215
00:38:28.385 --> 00:38:31.007
There are many more patients than in the US alone.

1216
00:38:31.428 --> 00:38:32.389
So you cannot just,

1217
00:38:32.469 --> 00:38:32.729
I mean,

1218
00:38:33.289 --> 00:38:33.730
in my view,

1219
00:38:33.770 --> 00:38:34.991
you cannot just go without it,

1220
00:38:35.031 --> 00:38:35.251
right?

1221
00:38:35.631 --> 00:38:36.412
You have to be there.

1222
00:38:36.552 --> 00:38:37.773
You have to be in Europe.

1223
00:38:38.073 --> 00:38:38.213
Yes.

1224
00:38:38.253 --> 00:38:39.955
And how do you see your company in five years?

1225
00:38:40.255 --> 00:38:40.375
So,

1226
00:38:40.615 --> 00:38:40.735
yeah,

1227
00:38:40.855 --> 00:38:41.356
good question.

1228
00:38:42.852 --> 00:38:43.552
With a lot of NUCO,

1229
00:38:43.572 --> 00:38:44.273
a lot of partners,

1230
00:38:44.313 --> 00:38:46.273
we are building the platform to be able to scale.

1231
00:38:46.614 --> 00:38:47.674
So that's really about,

1232
00:38:47.794 --> 00:38:49.435
it's not just about having one or two.

1233
00:38:50.135 --> 00:38:51.736
It's really just being able to go big.

1234
00:38:52.616 --> 00:38:55.077
There are also other geographies that we're interested in.

1235
00:38:58.518 --> 00:39:01.139
I'm probably biased because I lived in Japan for some time.

1236
00:39:01.960 --> 00:39:03.881
And I think the Japanese market also,

1237
00:39:04.141 --> 00:39:04.461
in a way,

1238
00:39:04.581 --> 00:39:06.482
shares common things with the European one.

1239
00:39:07.562 --> 00:39:08.783
It's very difficult to get in.

1240
00:39:09.363 --> 00:39:10.043
But once you're in,

1241
00:39:10.383 --> 00:39:11.944
it's a fantastic healthcare system.

1242
00:39:12.380 --> 00:39:12.560
Okay.

1243
00:39:13.100 --> 00:39:15.581
What advice would you give to a biotech CEO?

1244
00:39:16.842 --> 00:39:18.963
I would tell them don't neglect Europe.

1245
00:39:20.263 --> 00:39:21.284
It's a great market.

1246
00:39:22.484 --> 00:39:24.705
It's a great place to also learn for them.

1247
00:39:25.185 --> 00:39:26.986
And because there's good science,

1248
00:39:27.026 --> 00:39:27.907
there are good doctors.

1249
00:39:28.567 --> 00:39:28.687
Yeah.

1250
00:39:28.987 --> 00:39:29.967
There are a lot of patients.

1251
00:39:30.928 --> 00:39:36.110
And so be prepared and grow the right muscle to get there.

1252
00:39:37.190 --> 00:39:38.571
And we are here to help if need be.

1253
00:39:39.051 --> 00:39:39.211
Yeah.

1254
00:39:39.692 --> 00:39:39.932
Okay.

1255
00:39:40.352 --> 00:39:40.672
Thank you.

1256
00:39:41.032 --> 00:39:41.592
Thank you very much,

1257
00:39:41.652 --> 00:39:42.433
Natalie.

1258
00:39:42.434 --> 00:39:43.173
It was very nice.

1259
00:39:43.533 --> 00:39:44.594
In the next episode,

1260
00:39:44.754 --> 00:39:46.755
we'll explore the tension between access,

1261
00:39:46.975 --> 00:39:48.696
price and collective choices.

1262
00:39:49.156 --> 00:39:49.997
And in the comments,

1263
00:39:50.097 --> 00:39:51.037
feel free to tell me,

1264
00:39:51.518 --> 00:39:55.560
is Europe too fragmented to be competitive or is its diversity a strength?

1265
00:39:58.944 --> 00:39:59.065
I