"Executing differently takes courage" (5/5) - From managing global subsidiaries to walking the talk : when execution becomes personal

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I wanted to end this mini-series on execution with Patrice Zagamay,

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because his episode is ultimately the one that goes perhaps the furthest on this personal notion,

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not necessarily in terms of numbers or scale,

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but in terms of what execution reveals about oneself.

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At some point in a career,

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execution ceases to be a professional skill.

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It becomes a personal question.

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Do we really commit or do we just manage?

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Do we take the risk of leaving the mark we want to leave with no guarantee of success?

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Or do we stay in the comfort of an organization?

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Welcome to PharmaMinds.

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I'm Nathalie Lahit,

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the host of this podcast,

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and I'm bringing you closer to the people who shaped the pharma industry.

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My goal is to understand how they've evolved within this sector,

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what led them to progress and to fight to build a society that is healthier.

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Ethics,

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personal development,

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ambition through their advice,

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I want to give you the keys to imagine tomorrow's pharma together.

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Today for this episode,

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I'm with Patrice Zagami.

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We'll keep it simple.

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I'm impressed because he's truly a leading figure in the pharma industry that I have here with me.

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His new challenge,

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entrepreneurship.

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He's the founder and CEO of Eolius Health,

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an OTC lab for plant-based products aimed

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He's at the Brazilian market where he's lived for about 10 years.

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Without further ado,

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I'll let the conversation begin.

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Hello,

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Patrice.

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Hello,

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Nathalie.

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I'm delighted to be with you today.

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Welcome to Paris.

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Thank you.

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We're lucky to be meeting.

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To start,

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I'd like you to give an update to all the French pharma industry people who'll be listening.

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I think with great pleasure.

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How are you doing?

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Very well,

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very well.

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Thank you.

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And hello to everyone.

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The whole industry is listening,

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but I think maybe a first message.

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When you spend 35 years in an industry,

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you end up meeting many people,

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clients,

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colleagues,

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government,

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civil servants,

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and so on.

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And yet,

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over the years,

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you create relationships,

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perhaps more than professional,

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I think,

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human relationships.

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So

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I'm delighted to be with you today and to be able to exchange once again with all these people.

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And you're doing well?

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I'm doing very well,

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absolutely.

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As you briefly described my new projects.

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It's quite stimulating indeed.

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Now let's turn to your career.

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I'd like to understand what makes a doctor find themselves in the industry so early to build a career.

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I had a career start.

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Throughout my career,

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I've been under pressure regarding these balances.

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But that's also what makes these leadership positions enjoyable,

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having to manage this concept.

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You've experienced many complex situations,

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I imagine,

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in a career.

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What moment would you describe as the most difficult for you?

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I'll say,

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without giving names.

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none of the difficult moments well i'm going through one right now starting a business on your own funds is a real challenge but anyway apart from that one which is also a bit obvious i think there are missions that they're not impossible missions but there

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are missions or battles that are hard to win when you build a career it would be nice to have a little crystal ball and not to get involved in missions that you cannot win out of a taste for personal challenge

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I've often taken on battles that I couldn't win,

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but it's not necessarily good for one's career.

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Just an anecdote,

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after many years working internationally and being quite well regarded by my organization,

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I was appointed in France,

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and France is a rather complex country to manage.

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You have the labor union dimension,

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you have the regulatory dimension,

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which is quite significant,

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you have the dimension of the talent capital of the

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French, which is quite sophisticated on a global level.

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I've worked with many different nationalities.

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The French critical spirit is very much present.

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You don't really realize it when you're in France.

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But when you leave France,

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you realize to what extent we have a critical spirit.

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And so

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I came back as the leader of a French subsidiary.

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And there I really felt the difficulty.

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Same thing trying to change an organization,

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to make it run at a much faster pace,

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to create growth in a country where I had

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150 million in price cuts every year.

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to gain market share while at the same time applying a sales force reduction that came from my group.

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So you reach a point where it's a bit like squaring the circle and there you are in the middle of the crossroads between missions that are irreconcilable.

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So this notion of taking on battles where you cannot win.

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You often can't know that as you go along.

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I think you can if you think about it a bit.

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If you come to France,

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you know there are battles.

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I often don't think enough,

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so I've taken on a few.

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So how do you make your choices then?

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That's a very good question.

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I once had training on learning how to make choices.

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Yes,

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no,

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on...

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No,

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simply.

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Make choices.

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It's whether you make choices because they arise.

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So one day they call you,

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they say,

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do you want to go to Spain and hop?

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Oh,

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well,

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yes,

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Spain is nice.

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Let's go.

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Or do you really make choices?

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Do you say to yourself,

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well,

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my career,

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I want it to be like this.

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And so I'm only going to go there or I won't leave my country or I will move or I'll go to the United States and so on.

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So this notion of choice.

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I'm staying in my job right now because I really want to be calm and at peace.

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Choice or chance.

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I've worked a lot by chance,

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but it's not necessarily good.

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So I recommend working by choice.

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At the same time,

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you've had a lot of fun.

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You've done the jobs you had with passion.

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Yes,

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yes,

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yes.

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But once again,

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here,

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I think that it's important in our discussion,

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but in a general way,

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for those listening to us,

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you have to know yourself.

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You have to know yourself.

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You have to know yourself.

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Know what you love in life.

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Early on,

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we change.

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We have the right to change.

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But you must define a bit what you want to be,

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what you want.

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Otherwise,

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yes,

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you just drift along a bit.

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For me,

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it wasn't necessarily bad because I'm rather by nature impulsive and I'm rather by nature curious and changing.

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So for me,

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everything new,

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everything that's a challenge is rather stimulating,

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but that's not necessarily the case for everyone.

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So for people who might need a bit more certainty,

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getting into paths that lead them to a lot of change,

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fluctuations,

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uncertainties is not necessarily a good emotional choice.

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Not necessarily a good career choice because they won't be in their comfort zone.

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And then...

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we're not alone in life.

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So we have spouses,

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we have families sometimes,

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we have parents who are in a country.

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And so all these decisions have a considerable impact on other people.

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You've been abroad a lot afterwards.

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Yes,

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perhaps.

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Among the choices I made,

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well,

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I think that having already oriented myself towards the pharmaceutical industry was a pretty good idea.

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Because I repeat,

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I found an energy there that I wouldn't necessarily have found in a hospital setting,

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particularly.

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So that was a pretty good decision.

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And once again,

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these are involving decisions because there we were talking about two very different careers.

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Not necessarily easy to make that decision at that time with so little visibility on what was going to happen.

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So that was a first choice.

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The second is that by heading straight for foreign countries,

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I stepped into a logic that I was right to follow,

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I think.

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So the fact of going,

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I could have done my military service quietly in Paris,

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staying close to my friends and my family.

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I decided to let myself be parachuted into the heart of Latin America.

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I didn't even speak Spanish at the time.

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But it was a good choice because in the end I traveled a lot.

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I spent a part of my life and then finally I land today in Brazil.

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It's not by chance.

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It's the last of the dominoes.

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Maybe not the last actually.

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But it's one more domino that followed the others.

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But I don't regret it at all.

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It's good.

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It opened me up.

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First it opened me up to a different culture.

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It opened me up to a different energy,

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different experiences.

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I enjoyed it.

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It's very good.

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And on a professional level,

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finally,

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it allowed me to reach increasing levels of responsibility.

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I think it was the right choice.

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And among the choices that should have been made?

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That's interesting,

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I think.

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Besides,

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as they often say,

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it's what we shouldn't do that's more important than what we should.

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But among the choices I didn't make,

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it's not that I decided not to do them,

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but I was already somewhat aware of the stakes.

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So it was a bit either out of stubbornness or out of pride or that I just didn't make those choices.

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That is to say,

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I was in an organization that,

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like all organizations in the pharma industry,

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began to evolve from the mass market towards specialties.

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So it started with oncology in the

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2000s. And so you have to put yourself back into the context where all these specialties were small.

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So they were a bit like the second or the third or the fifth wheel on the wagon.

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You told me that there were actually two important turns that I missed,

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and those were the things that ended up keeping me from becoming the CEO.

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Those are the two important and significant aspects of the executive curriculum,

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which,

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as we have seen,

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were truly decisive and crucial for shaping and influencing professional careers.

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Today,

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there are others that are currently happening,

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and that's why I think that the people listening to us should start thinking,

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what is going to define the higher level needs that will mean I have to acquire?

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I need to be in such a place or have such a skill.

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Those two things,

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oncology and the US,

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were things you knew.

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I sensed it.

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Honestly,

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I do have a fairly reliable and certain competence when it comes to analyzing things.

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Really,

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I can usually pick up on these situations quite well,

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the future,

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and I sensed that it was obviously going to happen.

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All the signs were there,

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but it was only confirmed later.

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So oncology was already,

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as I say,

269
00:09:39.960 --> 00:09:41.601
a smaller part of the organization.

270
00:09:42.697 --> 00:09:47.281
But it was a high attractor of people because they were in full growth and full structuring.

271
00:09:47.301 --> 00:09:52.286
And so it was the time to enter this field since it then became extremely decisive.

272
00:09:52.646 --> 00:09:54.888
And for some companies it became the portfolio,

273
00:09:55.349 --> 00:09:59.693
meaning they eliminated all other products and they became oncology companies.

274
00:10:00.679 --> 00:10:01.440
So for me,

275
00:10:01.520 --> 00:10:01.640
no,

276
00:10:02.040 --> 00:10:03.101
I didn't make that choice.

277
00:10:03.501 --> 00:10:04.002
I could have.

278
00:10:04.142 --> 00:10:04.823
And at the same time,

279
00:10:04.843 --> 00:10:05.503
I found a job.

280
00:10:05.703 --> 00:10:08.826
I was doing more interesting and then I didn't push to do it firstly.

281
00:10:09.026 --> 00:10:09.607
And secondly,

282
00:10:09.647 --> 00:10:10.347
the United States,

283
00:10:10.387 --> 00:10:10.548
well,

284
00:10:10.568 --> 00:10:13.830
there it's more because it wasn't offered to me that I didn't do it.

285
00:10:14.371 --> 00:10:14.951
On the other hand,

286
00:10:15.092 --> 00:10:18.294
I could have actively sought to go to the United States at all costs.

287
00:10:19.055 --> 00:10:21.157
I could have done it and it's probably what I should have done.

288
00:10:21.897 --> 00:10:25.100
But there I think it's more out of pride that I didn't seek to do that.

289
00:10:25.140 --> 00:10:25.641
Absolutely.

290
00:10:26.481 --> 00:10:27.402
And the organization,

291
00:10:27.422 --> 00:10:28.163
it didn't come up.

292
00:10:28.835 --> 00:10:30.637
I think there's a point in organizations.

293
00:10:30.977 --> 00:10:34.180
When you start providing an important service to organizations,

294
00:10:34.580 --> 00:10:35.361
they still have,

295
00:10:35.381 --> 00:10:36.882
and this is a message for all our friends,

296
00:10:37.202 --> 00:10:39.464
they still have a tendency to leave you where you are.

297
00:10:40.585 --> 00:10:41.446
You hold the line,

298
00:10:41.447 --> 00:10:42.387
you fly the plane,

299
00:10:42.467 --> 00:10:45.610
and there aren't necessarily 50 people to fly the plane.

300
00:10:46.350 --> 00:10:50.214
So organizations are a little bit conservative in maintaining the status quo.

301
00:10:50.714 --> 00:10:51.675
They develop people,

302
00:10:51.715 --> 00:10:53.397
they make the effort to develop people,

303
00:10:53.637 --> 00:10:56.099
but I think it's something you have to keep control over.

304
00:10:56.695 --> 00:11:00.196
Because otherwise you might end up staying at the pace of your organization.

305
00:11:00.337 --> 00:11:02.037
And five years can make all the difference.

306
00:11:02.637 --> 00:11:06.539
You've stayed five years too long in a country or in a role and you didn't make the transition.

307
00:11:07.439 --> 00:11:09.560
There are certain ages and moments in life to move on.

308
00:11:09.1000 --> 00:11:10.561
Unfortunately,

309
00:11:10.581 --> 00:11:11.441
it shouldn't be that way,

310
00:11:11.501 --> 00:11:11.981
but it is.

311
00:11:12.782 --> 00:11:14.082
Thank you so much for sharing that.

312
00:11:14.302 --> 00:11:16.863
Because it's very inspiring to know that everyone makes mistakes.

313
00:11:18.024 --> 00:11:19.764
Mistakes or choices that have consequences,

314
00:11:20.205 --> 00:11:22.666
but which can turn out to be good choices for you and for your life.

315
00:11:23.866 --> 00:11:24.606
In this last part,

316
00:11:24.646 --> 00:11:25.727
which is a bit more personal.

317
00:11:26.123 --> 00:11:29.105
I'd like to try to understand the pressure a manager like you faced,

318
00:11:29.485 --> 00:11:30.726
having had so much responsibility,

319
00:11:30.846 --> 00:11:33.387
always caught between local teams and management above.

320
00:11:33.887 --> 00:11:34.087
Yes,

321
00:11:34.147 --> 00:11:34.988
there we come back to it.

322
00:11:35.488 --> 00:11:37.229
You're right to say that it's very personal.

323
00:11:37.709 --> 00:11:40.311
I think everyone will have a very different experience of it.

324
00:11:40.971 --> 00:11:43.472
It depends on your personal involvement in the work,

325
00:11:43.492 --> 00:11:44.073
in your mission.

326
00:11:44.893 --> 00:11:48.235
It depends on your personal sense of the collective mission,

327
00:11:48.635 --> 00:11:50.176
as I was alluding to at the beginning.

328
00:11:50.856 --> 00:11:53.418
You spoke of the balancing acts to be done between the trade-offs.

329
00:11:53.738 --> 00:11:55.859
Do you feel a responsibility towards people or not?

330
00:11:56.087 --> 00:11:57.968
There are many people who don't necessarily,

331
00:11:58.348 --> 00:11:58.808
then again...

332
00:11:59.128 --> 00:12:01.188
I think when you're in the healthcare field everywhere,

333
00:12:01.529 --> 00:12:02.309
maybe even more so,

334
00:12:02.509 --> 00:12:03.289
it's hard to let go,

335
00:12:03.609 --> 00:12:04.069
to stop.

336
00:12:04.809 --> 00:12:04.990
Yes,

337
00:12:05.030 --> 00:12:05.870
that's quite possible.

338
00:12:06.250 --> 00:12:06.950
It's a background,

339
00:12:06.990 --> 00:12:07.650
medical training,

340
00:12:07.730 --> 00:12:08.691
pharmaceutical training.

341
00:12:09.171 --> 00:12:11.371
These are service-oriented fields for humans.

342
00:12:12.472 --> 00:12:15.052
You certainly keep some psychological traces of it,

343
00:12:15.092 --> 00:12:15.633
that's clear.

344
00:12:16.473 --> 00:12:17.333
It's very personal.

345
00:12:17.693 --> 00:12:20.814
I think the organizational experience depends a lot on your personality.

346
00:12:21.534 --> 00:12:23.875
I probably had a personality with a sense of...

347
00:12:24.279 --> 00:12:29.521
responsibility towards others that sometimes put me at odds with the choices of the organizations.

348
00:12:30.321 --> 00:12:30.981
As I was saying,

349
00:12:31.061 --> 00:12:33.162
organizations have economic imperatives,

350
00:12:33.582 --> 00:12:34.822
stock market imperatives.

351
00:12:35.142 --> 00:12:40.984
The stock market is an extremely cruel world that requires organizations to have permanent profit growth.

352
00:12:41.544 --> 00:12:43.485
It's not just that you're asked to have 20%

353
00:12:44.065 --> 00:12:44.365
EBIT,

354
00:12:44.805 --> 00:12:46.506
you're asked to have growth in your EBIT.

355
00:12:47.886 --> 00:12:48.786
Not only is it 20%,

356
00:12:49.207 --> 00:12:50.247
but it's annual growth.

357
00:12:51.691 --> 00:12:55.193
and the economic world of healthcare isn't infinitely expansive,

358
00:12:55.613 --> 00:12:57.194
so that translates into tensions.

359
00:12:57.995 --> 00:13:00.016
The good news is that when there's competition,

360
00:13:00.376 --> 00:13:01.957
we manage to gain market share,

361
00:13:02.017 --> 00:13:02.737
so we hold on.

362
00:13:03.097 --> 00:13:04.018
But there comes a point,

363
00:13:04.358 --> 00:13:07.160
and when sometimes you're in areas where there's little competition,

364
00:13:07.620 --> 00:13:08.641
when you have a generic,

365
00:13:08.761 --> 00:13:10.281
when you finish the product cycle,

366
00:13:10.642 --> 00:13:14.004
you find yourself with extremely significant economic stakes.

367
00:13:14.604 --> 00:13:19.947
So balancing the well-being of the teams you lead with economic well-being isn't necessarily easy.

368
00:13:21.011 --> 00:13:22.733
One could argue you shouldn't have gone for it.

369
00:13:22.793 --> 00:13:23.913
That's the manager's job.

370
00:13:24.494 --> 00:13:28.577
I think there's also a need for people like you who are capable of taking on riskier missions,

371
00:13:28.938 --> 00:13:29.558
which aren't easy.

372
00:13:30.279 --> 00:13:30.879
The question is,

373
00:13:30.899 --> 00:13:32.681
at what personal human cost can we do it?

374
00:13:32.841 --> 00:13:33.922
To be perfectly honest,

375
00:13:33.942 --> 00:13:36.204
I had a burnout at one point in my career.

376
00:13:36.664 --> 00:13:38.145
So you shouldn't be ashamed to cry.

377
00:13:38.906 --> 00:13:40.767
It's very trendy to express these feelings.

378
00:13:41.088 --> 00:13:41.628
I think that,

379
00:13:41.728 --> 00:13:41.928
yes,

380
00:13:41.968 --> 00:13:42.629
at some point,

381
00:13:42.709 --> 00:13:44.370
there are missions that tear you apart.

382
00:13:44.831 --> 00:13:45.812
And so you hold on,

383
00:13:45.832 --> 00:13:46.252
you hold on,

384
00:13:46.292 --> 00:13:47.113
but you can break.

385
00:13:47.953 --> 00:13:49.555
It shouldn't be underestimated.

386
00:13:50.071 --> 00:13:52.193
So it's clear and I think everyone knows it,

387
00:13:52.593 --> 00:13:57.976
being a manager and a manager of executives means it's on the same level as a high-level athlete.

388
00:13:58.437 --> 00:13:59.438
You have to be in good health.

389
00:13:59.918 --> 00:14:03.300
You have to be able to have psychological distancing mechanisms.

390
00:14:04.241 --> 00:14:06.262
You must always be able to gain some perspective.

391
00:14:07.083 --> 00:14:08.644
You can do it through meditation,

392
00:14:08.724 --> 00:14:09.564
through psychology,

393
00:14:09.645 --> 00:14:10.605
through psychotherapy.

394
00:14:11.466 --> 00:14:14.668
You have to be able to distance yourself from the professional content.

395
00:14:16.129 --> 00:14:17.730
When you start mixing things up,

396
00:14:17.830 --> 00:14:18.831
the emotional side,

397
00:14:19.135 --> 00:14:20.036
your personal values,

398
00:14:20.056 --> 00:14:22.157
the economic imperatives of organizations,

399
00:14:22.457 --> 00:14:26.459
there comes a point where you are really at odds and you break down psychologically.

400
00:14:26.919 --> 00:14:27.540
That happened to me.

401
00:14:27.560 --> 00:14:28.620
I mismanaged my energy.

402
00:14:29.861 --> 00:14:30.421
As I was saying,

403
00:14:30.422 --> 00:14:31.622
it was a battle I couldn't win,

404
00:14:32.002 --> 00:14:33.423
really in a very rational way.

405
00:14:34.003 --> 00:14:34.623
Rational why?

406
00:14:34.843 --> 00:14:35.644
Because at the time,

407
00:14:35.764 --> 00:14:41.367
our team managed to take France from sixth position to almost first position in the French market.

408
00:14:41.927 --> 00:14:43.508
So you'd say that's actually quite good.

409
00:14:45.189 --> 00:14:45.869
But conversely,

410
00:14:45.929 --> 00:14:48.731
we barely had zero or one or two percent annual growth.

411
00:14:49.803 --> 00:15:00.167
in organizations that were asking for 10 it was the era of china the era of india all that was growing at 15 to 25 percent and so the shareholders were demanding growth

412
00:15:00.769 --> 00:15:02.490
So when you were in markets like Europe,

413
00:15:02.810 --> 00:15:05.031
it was very difficult to deliver economic growth,

414
00:15:05.432 --> 00:15:09.134
even if you were extremely high performing because market shares and all that,

415
00:15:09.214 --> 00:15:11.095
while reducing and increasing productivity.

416
00:15:11.575 --> 00:15:12.316
So at some point,

417
00:15:12.396 --> 00:15:13.096
you just can't win.

418
00:15:13.816 --> 00:15:14.297
So for me,

419
00:15:14.477 --> 00:15:14.677
yes,

420
00:15:14.737 --> 00:15:15.217
I held on,

421
00:15:15.257 --> 00:15:15.697
I hid it.

422
00:15:16.018 --> 00:15:17.779
I did the balancing act for a few years.

423
00:15:18.159 --> 00:15:18.959
And then at one point,

424
00:15:18.979 --> 00:15:19.359
I broke.

425
00:15:19.860 --> 00:15:20.800
You didn't see it coming?

426
00:15:21.100 --> 00:15:21.221
No,

427
00:15:21.361 --> 00:15:21.781
not really.

428
00:15:22.561 --> 00:15:23.462
It builds up gradually.

429
00:15:23.822 --> 00:15:24.442
It's like frogs.

430
00:15:24.883 --> 00:15:26.043
When you put them in cold water,

431
00:15:26.063 --> 00:15:27.044
as soon as you heat it up,

432
00:15:27.404 --> 00:15:28.925
they hold on for quite a long time.

433
00:15:29.853 --> 00:15:31.754
So I didn't jump out of the pot of boiling water.

434
00:15:32.534 --> 00:15:33.494
How do you recover from that?

435
00:15:33.854 --> 00:15:34.574
How do you recover?

436
00:15:34.754 --> 00:15:34.874
Well,

437
00:15:34.875 --> 00:15:35.835
you have to be very careful.

438
00:15:35.875 --> 00:15:37.515
Burnout is a very serious illness.

439
00:15:38.115 --> 00:15:38.775
But in my case,

440
00:15:38.795 --> 00:15:40.076
I walked away from it all I know.

441
00:15:40.516 --> 00:15:43.017
I left my company and went to take refuge in Latin America.

442
00:15:43.857 --> 00:15:44.717
And you protect yourself.

443
00:15:44.797 --> 00:15:45.117
So yes,

444
00:15:45.177 --> 00:15:45.597
I simply...

445
00:15:45.957 --> 00:15:46.458
Was it radical?

446
00:15:46.478 --> 00:15:47.238
I changed the equation.

447
00:15:47.698 --> 00:15:48.778
Since I couldn't solve it,

448
00:15:49.138 --> 00:15:51.679
I simply turned the page and moved on to another equation.

449
00:15:52.259 --> 00:15:52.919
And that was good.

450
00:15:53.579 --> 00:15:53.720
Yes,

451
00:15:53.780 --> 00:15:57.621
because you're talking about protection mechanisms that are already difficult to put in place,

452
00:15:57.622 --> 00:15:59.001
the ones that suit us and...

453
00:15:59.261 --> 00:16:01.262
than keeping them during moments that are complex.

454
00:16:02.082 --> 00:16:03.423
But when you have some distance,

455
00:16:03.823 --> 00:16:09.365
the problem with burnout and people who don't understand that at some point they can refuse their context.

456
00:16:10.306 --> 00:16:11.866
We can always step out of context.

457
00:16:11.886 --> 00:16:12.527
There's a cost,

458
00:16:12.607 --> 00:16:13.687
there are consequences,

459
00:16:14.087 --> 00:16:15.328
but most of our misfortunes,

460
00:16:15.348 --> 00:16:16.488
we create them ourselves.

461
00:16:16.789 --> 00:16:19.950
So if we accept staying in an equation that has no solution,

462
00:16:20.330 --> 00:16:22.131
we are ultimately responsible for that.

463
00:16:22.471 --> 00:16:23.371
So we have a choice,

464
00:16:23.372 --> 00:16:24.132
we have to leave.

465
00:16:24.672 --> 00:16:27.093
I was in a company where I stayed for 17 years.

466
00:16:28.209 --> 00:16:29.269
I was quite well regarded.

467
00:16:29.829 --> 00:16:29.969
Yes,

468
00:16:30.010 --> 00:16:31.050
it was a difficult choice.

469
00:16:31.990 --> 00:16:33.170
It wasn't even a promotion.

470
00:16:33.171 --> 00:16:34.011
It was lateral.

471
00:16:35.131 --> 00:16:37.272
Especially since there's always the fear of what we'll do next.

472
00:16:39.032 --> 00:16:40.292
Life is never written in stone.

473
00:16:40.592 --> 00:16:42.493
That I can reassure everyone listening to you.

474
00:16:43.053 --> 00:16:43.673
It's part of life.

475
00:16:44.614 --> 00:16:45.934
You never know what's going to happen next.

476
00:16:46.594 --> 00:16:47.234
Whatever happens.

477
00:16:47.334 --> 00:16:49.975
The important thing is to go with desire and faith.

478
00:16:51.055 --> 00:16:53.076
Thank you so much for sharing this experience,

479
00:16:53.096 --> 00:16:56.177
because I think it really does good to hear this from a leader like you,

480
00:16:56.277 --> 00:16:56.597
honestly,

481
00:16:56.657 --> 00:16:56.957
because...

482
00:16:57.337 --> 00:16:59.398
These are behavioral topics and they're often hidden,

483
00:16:59.498 --> 00:17:04.139
so we also need examples to not only prevent it if it happens around us,

484
00:17:04.199 --> 00:17:05.739
but also to be able to talk about it.

485
00:17:06.500 --> 00:17:07.920
You exude a lot of charisma,

486
00:17:08.060 --> 00:17:08.660
of strength,

487
00:17:09.060 --> 00:17:11.461
but there's also a very strong sensitivity and sincerity.

488
00:17:12.441 --> 00:17:14.502
How did you go about learning to know yourself better?

489
00:17:14.682 --> 00:17:15.662
Maybe you need to be lucky,

490
00:17:15.742 --> 00:17:20.844
maybe you had to be lucky in your upbringing to have faced trials or challenges early on.

491
00:17:21.364 --> 00:17:25.665
I think people who build themselves in a secure environment who enter a system.

492
00:17:25.885 --> 00:17:26.145
early,

493
00:17:26.405 --> 00:17:27.906
they do have moments of questioning,

494
00:17:28.406 --> 00:17:29.907
but generally it's much later.

495
00:17:30.507 --> 00:17:34.629
I perhaps had the luck to have them very early in my life for personal reasons.

496
00:17:34.709 --> 00:17:36.810
So maybe it's a stroke of luck in the end.

497
00:17:38.610 --> 00:17:41.552
Your upbringing leads you to be under pressure a bit earlier.

498
00:17:41.632 --> 00:17:43.432
And so you ask yourself questions sooner.

499
00:17:43.773 --> 00:17:45.213
You have uncertainties earlier.

500
00:17:46.794 --> 00:17:47.834
So that's the first part.

501
00:17:49.095 --> 00:17:51.556
The second part is gradually through training,

502
00:17:52.116 --> 00:17:54.237
understanding that there's a hidden dimension.

503
00:17:54.873 --> 00:17:55.753
It's not just the hard,

504
00:17:55.793 --> 00:17:56.573
there's the soft.

505
00:17:57.774 --> 00:17:59.134
And when you start pulling that thread,

506
00:17:59.494 --> 00:18:01.975
you realize you have to go a bit into introspection.

507
00:18:03.055 --> 00:18:04.696
I did a few years of psychotherapy.

508
00:18:05.416 --> 00:18:07.637
I've read quite a few personal development books.

509
00:18:07.917 --> 00:18:09.777
And I've also spent time with coaching.

510
00:18:10.417 --> 00:18:11.258
I've had mentors.

511
00:18:12.498 --> 00:18:16.639
My organization and Novartis had supported us with high-level mentoring,

512
00:18:16.699 --> 00:18:17.739
outstanding coaches,

513
00:18:17.819 --> 00:18:18.840
comprehensive training,

514
00:18:18.860 --> 00:18:19.420
and so on.

515
00:18:20.040 --> 00:18:21.981
But you really do have to take an interest.

516
00:18:22.741 --> 00:18:23.181
In the end,

517
00:18:23.441 --> 00:18:24.782
That was the strength of your career,

518
00:18:24.902 --> 00:18:25.202
I think.

519
00:18:25.542 --> 00:18:25.762
Yes,

520
00:18:25.843 --> 00:18:26.023
yes.

521
00:18:26.063 --> 00:18:27.483
I think that gave it its foundation.

522
00:18:27.964 --> 00:18:28.964
How do you manage people?

523
00:18:29.365 --> 00:18:31.326
I think if you don't work on yourself a bit,

524
00:18:31.786 --> 00:18:33.967
it's tricky because you have an egocentric approach.

525
00:18:34.608 --> 00:18:35.528
So you manage people,

526
00:18:35.588 --> 00:18:37.189
but you don't necessarily engage them.

527
00:18:38.210 --> 00:18:38.710
And as I say,

528
00:18:38.750 --> 00:18:40.191
everything comes together in life,

529
00:18:40.192 --> 00:18:40.871
in my opinion.

530
00:18:41.972 --> 00:18:43.473
And economic performance,

531
00:18:43.474 --> 00:18:45.034
you can only have it through people.

532
00:18:45.454 --> 00:18:46.295
I understood that very,

533
00:18:46.355 --> 00:18:46.535
very,

534
00:18:46.595 --> 00:18:47.255
very early on.

535
00:18:47.996 --> 00:18:49.937
We'd already talked about imposter syndrome.

536
00:18:51.309 --> 00:18:52.090
In our discussions,

537
00:18:52.130 --> 00:18:53.291
it's that at some point,

538
00:18:53.731 --> 00:18:57.013
we all know we can't do everything and we can't do everything all the time.

539
00:18:57.614 --> 00:19:02.157
And so it's necessarily others who find the solutions and do it.

540
00:19:02.637 --> 00:19:03.738
And I understood that very,

541
00:19:03.798 --> 00:19:03.998
very,

542
00:19:04.058 --> 00:19:04.759
very early on.

543
00:19:04.879 --> 00:19:07.401
I quickly realized I wasn't the smartest person in the room.

544
00:19:08.021 --> 00:19:10.483
I quickly understood and I told my teams as well,

545
00:19:10.883 --> 00:19:12.304
I'll never be the best financier.

546
00:19:12.404 --> 00:19:13.925
I'll never be the best at marketing.

547
00:19:14.426 --> 00:19:16.207
I'll never be the best in medical affairs,

548
00:19:16.667 --> 00:19:18.569
nor the best responsible pharmacist.

549
00:19:18.949 --> 00:19:26.211
But I'll probably always be the best across all the skills the team has because I've covered enough fields where I wasn't the best exactly.

550
00:19:26.851 --> 00:19:31.453
So I learned to know what needed to be known and to manage people who knew much more than I did.

551
00:19:31.953 --> 00:19:36.414
You still have far too many CEOs or leaders who think they know much better than everyone else.

552
00:19:37.254 --> 00:19:38.535
That's a gross strategic error,

553
00:19:38.575 --> 00:19:38.955
by the way.

554
00:19:39.415 --> 00:19:40.395
It's the people who know.

555
00:19:40.555 --> 00:19:41.616
It's the clients who know.

556
00:19:42.116 --> 00:19:43.256
It's the governments who know.

557
00:19:43.356 --> 00:19:44.336
It's your teams who know.

558
00:19:44.877 --> 00:19:45.337
It's not us.

559
00:19:45.437 --> 00:19:46.297
And me right now.

560
00:19:46.697 --> 00:19:49.359
I'm in a new field where I understand nothing and know nothing,

561
00:19:49.819 --> 00:19:50.519
which is digital.

562
00:19:51.200 --> 00:19:51.780
Could you perhaps,

563
00:19:51.860 --> 00:19:52.541
just to finish up,

564
00:19:52.881 --> 00:19:53.941
tell us about this new approach,

565
00:19:53.961 --> 00:19:58.384
a project for a young retiree who ultimately is taking on the biggest challenge of his life?

566
00:19:58.764 --> 00:19:59.205
Absolutely.

567
00:19:59.245 --> 00:19:59.625
That's good.

568
00:20:00.136 --> 00:20:02.858
I've always been sensitive in my career to what the English say,

569
00:20:03.259 --> 00:20:03.819
which I like.

570
00:20:03.820 --> 00:20:04.640
It's a short phrase,

571
00:20:05.080 --> 00:20:07.162
but it summarizes much better than anything else,

572
00:20:07.182 --> 00:20:08.263
which is walk the talk.

573
00:20:08.603 --> 00:20:09.344
So do what you say.

574
00:20:09.984 --> 00:20:11.125
And since I've preached a lot,

575
00:20:11.165 --> 00:20:12.266
unfortunately too much,

576
00:20:12.667 --> 00:20:13.868
I've preached too much in my career,

577
00:20:13.928 --> 00:20:14.228
do this,

578
00:20:14.229 --> 00:20:14.548
do that.

579
00:20:15.129 --> 00:20:15.869
And I've often said,

580
00:20:15.929 --> 00:20:16.350
oh yes,

581
00:20:16.390 --> 00:20:18.191
be entrepreneurs of your organization.

582
00:20:20.273 --> 00:20:22.295
So I preached entrepreneurship to people.

583
00:20:22.555 --> 00:20:23.256
So autonomy,

584
00:20:23.756 --> 00:20:25.478
all the glamour of being an entrepreneur.

585
00:20:26.719 --> 00:20:27.860
And so it's good now.

586
00:20:28.400 --> 00:20:30.701
Now I have the chance to walk the talk and see if I have the,

587
00:20:31.162 --> 00:20:32.382
and I wanted to test myself.

588
00:20:32.803 --> 00:20:33.663
I found a bit of this,

589
00:20:34.143 --> 00:20:35.884
this fascination for entrepreneurs.

590
00:20:36.625 --> 00:20:37.965
And so I wanted to test myself.

591
00:20:38.306 --> 00:20:38.626
And here,

592
00:20:38.726 --> 00:20:39.086
once again,

593
00:20:39.126 --> 00:20:40.047
I'm testing myself.

594
00:20:40.487 --> 00:20:40.827
We'll see.

595
00:20:41.047 --> 00:20:41.327
We'll see.

596
00:20:41.387 --> 00:20:41.788
But it's very,

597
00:20:41.828 --> 00:20:42.188
very fun.

598
00:20:42.588 --> 00:20:42.928
It's very,

599
00:20:42.988 --> 00:20:43.869
it's very stimulating.

600
00:20:44.469 --> 00:20:45.290
It's a big challenge.

601
00:20:45.910 --> 00:20:47.351
It's a lot of financial commitment.

602
00:20:47.911 --> 00:20:48.652
It's very risky.

603
00:20:49.352 --> 00:20:49.552
Yes,

604
00:20:49.632 --> 00:20:51.413
it's true that it would be more logical to,

605
00:20:51.933 --> 00:20:53.114
to go to the beach in Brazil.

606
00:20:54.595 --> 00:20:56.356
But I think that having challenges like that.

607
00:20:56.708 --> 00:20:57.068
projects.

608
00:20:57.108 --> 00:20:58.129
It's the spice of life.

609
00:20:58.409 --> 00:20:58.950
So it's good.

610
00:20:58.970 --> 00:20:59.290
Let's go.

611
00:20:59.550 --> 00:21:00.090
Well done anyway.

612
00:21:00.171 --> 00:21:00.791
Congratulations.

613
00:21:01.592 --> 00:21:04.253
Is there one last question that you would like me to ask you?

614
00:21:04.474 --> 00:21:07.095
There's always this question in personal development courses.

615
00:21:07.155 --> 00:21:13.980
And one of the methods to know what you want in life is to ask yourself what you want people to say when you're dead on your tombstone.

616
00:21:14.381 --> 00:21:14.621
Indeed,

617
00:21:14.661 --> 00:21:15.922
I wouldn't have asked you that question.

618
00:21:16.342 --> 00:21:17.483
At your funeral speech,

619
00:21:17.703 --> 00:21:19.424
I've often asked myself the question.

620
00:21:20.385 --> 00:21:22.787
I think I always come back to what makes me tick.

621
00:21:23.767 --> 00:21:24.528
What makes me tick?

622
00:21:24.848 --> 00:21:26.829
ultimately is having led teams somewhere.

623
00:21:28.050 --> 00:21:29.191
Having led them in joy,

624
00:21:29.391 --> 00:21:29.972
good humor,

625
00:21:30.152 --> 00:21:31.513
enthusiasm and success,

626
00:21:32.013 --> 00:21:34.274
it's something that's always made me feel alive.

627
00:21:34.314 --> 00:21:36.356
So if they say that when I die,

628
00:21:36.816 --> 00:21:37.597
that's just fine.

629
00:21:39.878 --> 00:21:40.218
Thank you.

630
00:21:40.839 --> 00:21:41.359
One last thing.

631
00:21:41.739 --> 00:21:46.763
What is the advice you could give to young people who want to embrace a career as challenging and fulfilling as yours?

632
00:21:47.543 --> 00:21:48.004
First of all,

633
00:21:48.044 --> 00:21:49.505
it's that they won't have my career.

634
00:21:50.706 --> 00:21:51.806
It will be another era,

635
00:21:52.026 --> 00:21:52.747
another reality,

636
00:21:52.827 --> 00:21:54.028
another economic system.

637
00:21:54.448 --> 00:21:55.048
other products.

638
00:21:55.388 --> 00:21:56.629
It won't be the same thing at all.

639
00:21:57.329 --> 00:21:58.290
And that's important.

640
00:21:59.350 --> 00:22:01.811
I practice it a bit in my daily life as an entrepreneur.

641
00:22:02.291 --> 00:22:03.352
I started with one idea,

642
00:22:03.492 --> 00:22:04.752
but I'm already on another idea.

643
00:22:05.473 --> 00:22:06.513
I thought I'd do digital.

644
00:22:06.514 --> 00:22:10.535
And then finally I launched a sales force and that in the space of three months.

645
00:22:10.555 --> 00:22:11.595
So I think this notion,

646
00:22:11.635 --> 00:22:13.696
and we are too educated in our,

647
00:22:13.876 --> 00:22:16.337
in the first third of our lives in certainty,

648
00:22:16.357 --> 00:22:17.598
we are created on models.

649
00:22:17.618 --> 00:22:22.740
We think that because we studied pharmacy or medicine it's going to be good for the rest of our career and

650
00:22:23.128 --> 00:22:23.248
No,

651
00:22:23.448 --> 00:22:25.169
everything changes all the time.

652
00:22:25.209 --> 00:22:28.510
So you have to educate yourself on fundamental principles.

653
00:22:28.850 --> 00:22:30.390
And we come back more to values.

654
00:22:30.410 --> 00:22:33.611
We come back more to behaviors because everything else follows.

655
00:22:34.411 --> 00:22:35.512
It's rarely technical.

656
00:22:35.632 --> 00:22:36.172
It's rarely,

657
00:22:36.612 --> 00:22:37.973
you have to go to the United States.

658
00:22:38.413 --> 00:22:38.633
Yes.

659
00:22:39.133 --> 00:22:40.233
At one point in my career,

660
00:22:40.273 --> 00:22:41.254
it was the United States,

661
00:22:41.514 --> 00:22:43.054
but maybe tomorrow it will be China.

662
00:22:43.174 --> 00:22:44.995
Maybe tomorrow it will be India.

663
00:22:45.115 --> 00:22:46.615
Maybe tomorrow it will be France.

664
00:22:47.375 --> 00:22:47.936
It's hard to know.

665
00:22:48.716 --> 00:22:49.296
It's doable.

666
00:22:49.700 --> 00:22:50.441
If we read a bit,

667
00:22:50.461 --> 00:22:50.981
if we search,

668
00:22:51.001 --> 00:22:51.582
if we connect,

669
00:22:51.583 --> 00:22:53.143
we manage to see where it's going to go.

670
00:22:54.064 --> 00:22:54.464
Obviously,

671
00:22:54.524 --> 00:22:55.545
if we don't dig deeper,

672
00:22:55.565 --> 00:22:56.586
it's going to be hard to know.

673
00:22:57.306 --> 00:22:59.688
So what I recommend to someone starting a career,

674
00:23:00.149 --> 00:23:00.309
one,

675
00:23:00.449 --> 00:23:01.350
it's what I was telling you.

676
00:23:01.370 --> 00:23:01.990
There's career,

677
00:23:02.450 --> 00:23:03.351
there's what I want to learn.

678
00:23:03.952 --> 00:23:05.973
So that's really understanding the difference.

679
00:23:06.374 --> 00:23:07.555
A career depends on others.

680
00:23:07.695 --> 00:23:08.876
What I want to learn depends on me.

681
00:23:09.076 --> 00:23:12.599
And the second is to have some fundamental principles of success,

682
00:23:13.099 --> 00:23:14.981
success alone and success with others.

683
00:23:15.821 --> 00:23:16.742
And for everything else,

684
00:23:16.962 --> 00:23:19.004
it's being flexible and seeing where the wind blows.

685
00:23:19.992 --> 00:23:21.714
Those are the three pieces of advice I'd give.

686
00:23:22.374 --> 00:23:23.015
Thank you very much.

687
00:23:23.455 --> 00:23:24.956
It's time to wrap up this conversation.

688
00:23:25.517 --> 00:23:28.079
A huge thank you to you for this fascinating discussion.

689
00:23:28.680 --> 00:23:31.822
I was very touched by your sincerity and the accuracy of your approaches.

690
00:23:32.543 --> 00:23:35.425
I'm extremely grateful that you were willing to share these insights.

691
00:23:35.886 --> 00:23:39.008
I think it will help listeners better live out the career of their dreams.

692
00:23:39.889 --> 00:23:40.530
A big thank you,

693
00:23:40.531 --> 00:23:40.930
Patrice,

694
00:23:41.150 --> 00:23:42.932
and enjoy the rest of your stay in Paris.

695
00:23:43.472 --> 00:23:43.933
See you soon.

696
00:23:44.153 --> 00:23:44.753
Thank you very much,

697
00:23:44.813 --> 00:23:45.134
Nathalie,

698
00:23:45.274 --> 00:23:47.235
and well done on your admirable project.

699
00:23:47.496 --> 00:23:47.796
Thank you.

700
00:23:48.156 --> 00:23:53.079
I found this question interesting to ask because we're all at some point led to ask it of ourselves.

701
00:23:53.559 --> 00:23:54.239
And the question is,

702
00:23:54.299 --> 00:23:56.481
how far can we go and what do we have to gain from it?

703
00:23:56.921 --> 00:24:00.423
Patrice spent 16 years managing subsidiaries on several continents.

704
00:24:00.723 --> 00:24:01.984
And today he's starting over,

705
00:24:02.304 --> 00:24:04.405
but with his own personal funds in Brazil.

706
00:24:04.765 --> 00:24:05.405
In a business,

707
00:24:06.006 --> 00:24:07.507
in an entrepreneurial approach,

708
00:24:07.967 --> 00:24:09.268
it's not a career conclusion.

709
00:24:09.328 --> 00:24:10.788
It's really an act of commitment,

710
00:24:11.229 --> 00:24:11.889
of leadership.

711
00:24:12.369 --> 00:24:15.011
And what Patrice says is that commitment isn't a posture.

712
00:24:15.111 --> 00:24:15.411
In fact,

713
00:24:15.431 --> 00:24:17.212
it's a decision that's renewed.

714
00:24:17.656 --> 00:24:18.937
with every single mission,

715
00:24:18.997 --> 00:24:20.037
with each and every team,

716
00:24:20.157 --> 00:24:22.999
and with every seemingly impossible context.

717
00:24:23.779 --> 00:24:24.520
And at some point,

718
00:24:24.580 --> 00:24:30.243
this decision becomes so deeply personal that it leads to putting skin in the game without a safety net,

719
00:24:30.543 --> 00:24:31.404
but with intention.

720
00:24:31.824 --> 00:24:35.046
And to be surrounded by people who genuinely understand this thoughtful approach,

721
00:24:35.766 --> 00:24:37.367
it really means a lot.

722
00:24:37.827 --> 00:24:39.568
That's what I wanted to end this series on.

723
00:24:39.948 --> 00:24:40.709
Not on a method,

724
00:24:40.789 --> 00:24:41.509
not on a choice,

725
00:24:41.549 --> 00:24:42.750
but on a personal decision.

726
00:24:43.090 --> 00:24:44.431
Thank you for following me this summer.

727
00:24:44.851 --> 00:24:46.212
If this series spoke to you,

728
00:24:46.728 --> 00:24:49.574
Share it with someone who is executing right now because,

729
00:24:49.975 --> 00:24:50.175
well,

730
00:24:50.536 --> 00:24:51.839
they are the ones who need it most.